i just did the Holley hp and love it, you need a start up tune to get you going Holley has tons of them and then you just tweak it, and i never tuned a car before this one very easy and a #### load of support on here, YB and the Holley forums

 

2,3 and 4 will all be easier than the moates. Not sure if any are plug and play but I think the Fitech would easiest based watching the powerblock guys install one awhile back.

 

Thanks. I like the overall look of a carb setup but ease of efi tuning. Just wasn't sure if anyone had any luck that wasn't building a full blown race car.

 

all are going to require time to tune, there is no other way around it, and you will need to learn the reasoning of it.

None are intuitive

None of these, come with, parameters you just stick in and it works.

parameters, and the math are all intertwined in logic, and computer lingo

Cold starts, and idle, and transient fueling all take time, and offer levels of fustration

And no one is going to tell what to do for free

the easiest and cheapest is to pay someone that already knows how to do it.

I am sure your time is worth something

 

If it's going on a street car where manners and reliability have value, the EEC is a good choice, but as you stated, can be confusing without reading and understanding the massive strategy doc.

 

I can't speak to Moates/QH but I can say that FAST is not a slap-it-in and get-up-and-running system. In my experience it's very similar to Megasquirt. I like them both, but they are both as unwieldy as they are powerful.

Can't speak to Holley or FiTECH.

What I can add though is that if I've ever seen a system that repeatedly has feedback about how easy it was to get going and how well the vehicle runs for the little bit of effort put in, it's Pro-M. I've never used it or seen it or even know anybody who has, so this is 100% based on feedback that I've come across on this forum. I have no idea what it's capabilities or limitations are but it might be worth adding to your list to do some homework on. Again, I'm only mentioning it because easy is clearly an important criteria for you and if there's a consistent word that apparently applies to the Pro-M system, at least as it appears from over here on the other side of the fence, easy would be that word.

 

Looking for the easiest (I'm not too computer savvy) and cheapest if possible. Don't want to have to rewrite the entire car either. Looking for plug-n-play which is more my style. Not sure if they're is such one.

We have a plug and play option for the '94 Mustang priced at $839:

MSPNP for '94-'95 Mustangs

It's even the exact same size as a stock EEC-IV so it not only plugs into the stock wiring, it fits under the stock hold down bracket.

You can download the installation guide and tuning software, see if this is something you'd want to tackle yourself or if you'd want to take it to a tuner.

 

Nice. Didn't know this existed. I like the idea because it replaces the stock PCM completely but still utilizes the same wiring, so you don't have to rewire the car. Our 20+ year old PCMs are starting to have issues with blown/leaky capacitors anyway, and while it's probably cheaper to fix them, I like the idea of having a brand new replacement option with onboard modification capability. That way you remove one less questionable component out of the chain of things to fail, cuz you don't have to worry whether your PCM is crapping out or your piggy back unit.

What are the downsides/limitations vs these other options?

I'm going to take a hard look at this.

Thanks for sharing.

 

I'm too cheap. And I'm a computer engineer so I fully understand how to tune EEC boxes. If you ever looked at the source code running on any of the Megasquirt boxes, I can assure you that even if you found it acceptable to run your engine you'd have second thoughts about putting your family in the car. Overpriced junk is unfortunately all I can come up with, but it's popular... just make sure you get an MS3 because MS2 doesn't support sequential injection on all 8 cylinders.

 

That's interesting. What do you see as being the issue with their code? Is it prone to crashing or something else that makes you think it's a safety concern?

 

I would just add that no thirdparty manufacturer has the need or the resources to fine tune their engine controls to a state better than Ford's controls department. Ford designed the EEC to support a wide range of engine configurations, eg. 4, 6, and 8 cylinder engines with a range of ignition type (TFI, EDIS, etc.) and transmission types (manual, auto, neutral safety switches, not, etc.). They also designed the engine to run almost perfectly in all conditions, like altitude, hot/cold, idle, part throttle, WOT - and I've not seen the level of control you have for many of these fine tuning parameters in thirdparty controllers. Ford released the 1st EEC box in 1978, so it's pretty hard for any thirdparty to catch up. There's a huge DIY community out there that has broken out complete definitions for the factory boxes, just as there are the similarly complete definitions available for BMW, GM, Porsche, Volvo, etc.

 

I think we might be wandering off base here.

The EEC is very capable in the right hands, but it is not easy which is a primary requirement here, and the OP has already gone down this path and determine that it doesn't meet their interface needs.

Megasquirt is also very capable in the right hands. I won't argue if it's more or less capable in terms of running an engine relevant to this conversation compared to the EEC, but there is a mountain of anecdotal evidence that it will do the job very well. Importantly it does have, in my opinion, an easier interface. I understand not liking the way the code is written but poor development practices does not necessitate poor functionality. Oracle SQL Server for example is so hacked together that there are parts of it that Oracle themselves admit they do not understand properly and therefore some quirks exist that they cannot alter. Nevertheless it is the king of the relational database mountain because it works very well. I expect the family comment was a bit of an over-exaggeration to make the point but some people might take such a thing at face value. I am confident, however spaghetti megasquirt's code base might be, it's not going to perform only-in-the-movies computer voodoo and suddenly alter its behavior and kill your family.

That said, as much as I love megasquirt I don't think I can honestly put it in to the "easiest" camp. You still need a pretty good handle on what you're doing to have good results.

I'll end with the piece of advice I tell everybody that asks me this. If you want easy, you're probably not going to do all final tuning yourself, so go find your tuner first. Find someone you like, and trust, that has good references. Run whatever they suggest you run, which is probably what they're most proficient with. That will be your path of least resistance to a car that runs well. If having someone else basically do it for you doesn't appeal to you, and you want to do it yourself, then you need to get the "easy" idea out of your head and accept that it's going to take time and effort and mistakes and failures to get there. It isn't easy, but it is really cool and rewarding!

 

My 1 and only 1 experience with Pro-M EFI was simple. Actually it was too simple.
Literally ripped out the old wires, installed the new provided harness. Input maybe 5 variables and all tuning was done.

If I was in a competition, I could probably install & have a damn near perfect running car in a single afternoon. Provided the car itself is in good running order.

But! Took me 3 dyno sessions, 4 "tuner" friends and 2 seasons using the Pro-M to get me my firm comfort level. For myself, I needed to try and break it before I could believe it.

All that said, I'm using the preloaded box stock tune on my street car. 17psi boost and my time has been spent driving the car. Not tuning the car.

 

at the end of the day it doesnt really matter what ecu you use or how you get there, all that matters is if your happy with the results

I dont discriminate holley fast bs ms eec i tune them all. I have found shortcomings in every single system that most wouldnt care about or even realize. I can tell you though that there is NO EASIER alternative than just sticking with the stock ecu for most applications. And I speak from exeriwnxe when I say most of the people I deal with get very upset when they find out I can make the stock ecu do everything their high dollar ecu can do for much cheaper.

Unless your trying to rotate the earth its just a wast e of money trying to replace a perfectly fine ecu IMO. The factory ford eecs are far superior than any of the aftermarket ecus. And with realtime tuning and emulation on them and the ability to write custom code and reassign outputs and inputs the stock eecs are a clear winner in every department.

Im not bashing any of the aftermarket ecus, they all do what they are intended to do, but from a price reliability, durability, and ease of replacement standpoint, the stock ford EECs CANNOT be beat.

If your frustrated trying to tune a ford ecu or just want to be able to plug in any afr or spark advance you want and not have to tune it or know what your doing then your best bet is to get a tune from someone that knows the ins and outs of the PCM your using.

 

Are you including the 94/95 OBDI ECU's?



Are you including the 94/95 OBD I ECU's?? Are they what you are talking about above? I plan on adding A SCT 4 bank chip & buying the handheld programmer for my 94 when I change heads, cam and intake etc....How good are you with this? Or is there something better. Hard to find anyone that knows what to do here in Oregon...Thanks.

 

I enjoyed installing and configuring my ms3x. I felt the software was really easy to use. I know when I wanted to try to use the tfi to fire ls1 coils, Matt and a developer in England (from ms forum) went way above what I expected. I learned a ton about efi.

The install does take time. There is no getting around that.

If you worry about 20 year old eec, then what about 20 year old wiring? Only reason I'm not a real fan of the stand alone that plug into factory wiring is the wiring has to be in good shape for any system to work correctly. Plus the fact a ms3x or ms3 pro costs about the same. With whatever you do I would check the wiring and make sure it's good.

I did sell my ms3x because I deicided I wanted to go carb. I never had confidence in my wiring skills. I was having weird problems and blamed my wiring. Turns out I had a slightly blown head and intake gasket was leaky.

I changed my mind and decided to go back efi. I went with pro m. I like that the wiring was done and there is an obd2 port.

 

I'm not sure why more people haven't mentioned Pro-M yet, its hands down the best money I've ever spent on my car.

I thought installing a new harness would be overwhelming for me, it wasn't, it was literally done in about an hour.

Plug in a few bits of data and go drive your damn car, no need to pay someone to tune it anymore.

If your car has bugs you need to work them out first, don't expect the software to tune around your vacuum leaks, bad fuel system, poor engine grounds or any other issue.

Dial your car in and insure it's in tip top condition and your done, who wouldn't want to do that in the first place anyways.

Customer service is excellent to say the least, Chris just spent 45 minutes on the phone with me going over how to setup my Progressive Nitrous Setup, he's walked me thru fuel system issues, a faulty MAF sensor adaptor (not Pro-M's issue), and voltage drop issues. None of these issue had anything to do with the software, it's hard for people to understand that if your car runs like it's supposed to the setup is plug and play, if you have any issues it's 99.9% an issue with your car. If that's the case you have the owner of the company willing to help walk you thru the issues, sometimes that involves you spending money to make sure you have quality components, that's fine by me.

Also, if you want to change your throttle body, get a new MAF sensor, swap cams, buy a turbo kit, install Nitrous, run Methanol, swap heads or anything your heart desires, guess who doesn't need to go pay for another tune, at around $500 a tune the system pays for itself in no time.

You can data log, you have real time data available, the software has a check engine light that throws codes, it controls your electric fans, you can have coil on (near) plugs.

If you think the price is high for the system, think again, sell your old ecu, ignition box, wiring harness, spark plug wires if you go with coil on plug and fan controller, you won't make a fortune but you've helped alleviate the initial cost.

Hands down the best money I've spent, if you have questions, want a real world review regarding my experience, PM me and I'd be glad to answer any questions, I didn't even know the system existed until I ran across a thread on here, I don't work for Pro-M, didn't get a discount on my setup, I just want to spread the word because I think it's an awesome product.

 

I'm not sure why more people haven't mentioned Pro-M yet, its hands down the best money I've ever spent on my car.

While I plan on doing a full review of it later, my Pro-m setup was essentially effortless and nearly flawless. Started up the first time and only made a few minor tweaks...if you are mechanically correct you should be able to plug in your data and be good to go.

Also, I just helped a friend install a Haltech Elite in his 4 banger and that was also relatively painless. Runs and drives but be need to work on the tune now as he is running speed density.

 

The stock Ford EEC does everything that has been mentioned as a feature in the aforementioned ECUs and it does that STOCK. All you need is a J3 port device to communicate with it and you're done. You can run an EEC-V box if you really want COP as well.

 

That's interesting. You can do launch control, traction control, flat shift, and table switching with the stock EEC-IV or EEC-V? It's come a long way since I looked at it, but it's also been a long time.

 

The EEC is definitely well engineered. In my opinion Ford does electronic engine control better than anyone from a reliability and functionality standpoint. Also very versatile in the right hands. And as I stated, for most street vehicles, the drive-ability and function is hard to beat. But it is not something the entry level guy is going to want to mess with though when you are pushing some serious HP. With my FAST XFI, I can attach the laptop and in no time be changing timing or fuel maps or boost control or launch control without having to understand a single line of code. Most aftermarket engine management systems have "self tuning" features that makes using them so much easier.

 

I would somewhat agree, a complete QH set up including BE/EA license on a dongle plus QH, wideband, base tune and a lasota tuning book is almost $1100. If you already have an idea of what you're doing you can save $200-300 by skipping the base tune and tuning book. So it's definitely not cheap but it is still half the cost of a pro-m, Holley hp, fast etc....

 

The most comprehensive and widely used tuning interface for ECUs in general is TunerPro (I've used it to tune BMWs, Saabs, Volvos, and my Buell motorcycle). TunerPro is free. I also own BE and EA (purchased for $30 a long time ago), but I'm finding that the TunerPro definitions are more up to date and support the modded ECU strategies as well. I paid $250 for a Moates QH and I already had the ECU in my car, so not sure about the cost there.

 

f someone doesn't have the know
For someone that has tuned cars before the cost is not as you have stated.

but lets take someone just getting started

A QH with start up tune and wide band is in the neighborhood of $600

-installation if they don't have the know how. 100-150 in labor and shop supplies
-gauge pod for the afr gauge, about $20 or so
-Lasotta racing handbook for tuning- $100??
- Sailor bob stuff- $25

So for roughly $800-850 you can get it off the ground if you are just getting started, not to note the steep learning curve if a person has never done this or has no back ground in electronics, and all in chip that is battery powered.

Its a great system if you are looking to learn and have time and are looking to tune cars in your neighborhood. Outside of that I see no use in it.

I only know of a handful of professional shops that use the system and out of the ones I know I would only recommend one to anyone.

JMO
Chris

 

What's the support/community side of things like for factory EEC tuning?

$1,100 isn't "cheap". That is what you'd pay for a plug-and-play megasquirt ecu, wideband, and a tunerstudio license that includes auto-tuning (the free version doesn't autotune AFAIK). This is the "I'm handing it to you on a silver platter ready to go" *premium* price.

Not that tuning megasquirt doesn't have a learning curve, it does, but I feel like the layout and navigation is significantly easier in tunerstudio. There's also a broad community of people that use it and help each other on forums much like the Mustang community here, but the megasquirt community is world-wide.

Now if you actually want to talk about "cheap"; if you're willing to solder things together yourself you can have the same thing for half the cost as the price of the ECU drops from ~863 (840 ecu + usb-to-serial 23 ) for plug-and-play to ~383 (ecu 280 + harness 80 + usb-to-serial 23) for a megasquirt 2 build-it-yourself kit. $383 for the ECU side + $155 for an MTX-L wideband + $60 Tunerstuido MS to give you autotune and you're good to go at $598.

And I'm sorry but I'm not buying the reliability story. My board is built with the same components from the same sources as any OEM - Texas instruments, central semiconductors, ON semiconductor, etc. These components are in your EEC, your macbook, your Dell, your Asus from newegg if you roll your own, and yes in my megasquirt too.

 

If you're tuning anything worth tuning you're going to have to invest in some basic tools, like a WBO2, boost gauge and what not. So I wouldn't include that into the price of getting started. That's about as basic as owning a torque wrench.

As far as reliability is concerned, you can bet your ass that the big motor corporation doesn't want to see boxes coming back for repair, so for that reason they are fully potted and thoroughly engineered, far better than aftermarket boxes; if they weren't and a Haltech was a viable option for an OEM they'd be contracting with them instead of building themselves.

You also have to consider the pain in the arse you're dealing with rewiring a car if you're going aftermarket. I can see someone swapping out the Ford crap if they've got a dedicated track or race car, for sure. However, in my case I have a track capable street rig, so retain my A/C, heat, stereo system, in addition to comfort items like power and heated seats, a lot of which is peripherally related to the ECU (like compensating for A/C load). I also will drive my old 5.0L on 4000-5000 mile roadtrips up the west coast to Canada and back (have done this about 20 times), so for the street/long endurance kind of guy the EEC does the job very well. I agree it's not for everyone because it is definitely a pain to tune due to the cryptic (engineering interface) nature of the computers, but if you can get past that I wouldn't have the slightest hesitation to control a 1200-1500 hp turbocharged engine with one. My 650 hp supercharged rig runs perfectly fine with EEC. For an upgrade I would run EEC-V, probably CDAN4 strategy or maybe try some of the newer COP capable EEC-V. There is obviously a massive community and numerous forums are dedicated to Ford EEC tuning.

If I were going aftermarket I would have to go for something a bit more high end which would be Motec, Haltech, or Autronic. I looked at the source code running the MS2 and MS3 and I find that to be amateur quality at best; money best spent elsewhere. Many of the other systems I've seen don't support true sequential injection, so be cognizant of that when shopping around for an aftermarket EEC if that matters to you.

 

There is NO easiest

It was already stated.

the easiest is to PAY someone to do it.

All tuning requires knowledge of engine management

Most people buying this stuff, don't even know the function of a IAC or any other form of it.

As soon as there is a thread asking "easiest" "cheapest" you know they are in over there head,.

IMHO.

 

I'll say up-front the advantage that the EEC series of computers have over aftermarket is that they're street legal, unless you modify their programming which basically makes that point moot.

The only MS boards that aren't surface mount are the roll-your-own v2.2 and v3.0 boards. Half of the intention with them is not just to save you money to build it yourself, it's an educational platform for you to learn about electronics, build circuits, and then get to actually do something with them.

All the other boards, the microsquirt, the v3.57, the daughter cards, all of them are manufactured boards with almost all surface mount reflow-soldered components. The EEC-IV is no different. Some components are surface mount, others are through-hole.

3.57 board - everything is surface mount except some transistors and some high wattage resistors.

EEC-IV - In addition to through-hole transistors there are through-hole resistors, diodes, and capacitors.

And what are you talking about fully potted? The EEC-IV is not a potted board. Neither is the EEC-V, here's a picture of one.

The EEC family of computers do die, and not all that rarely, which is why re-manufacturers like A1 Cardone bother to re-manufacture them (Example Part # 78-5611)

I understand that it might seem intuitive that the OEM computer must just be some better bombproof item, but that assumption does not stand up to scrutiny. I'm not saying it's any worse but I don't see any cause for it to be any better because it isn't different stuff, it's all the same stuff.

As far as the code goes since you bring it up again, that's your taste that you're welcome to hold but it isn't actually realized as a tangible impact. Regardless of your taste what matters is how the code performs, not how it is written. I got $20 that says you also haven't seen the proprietary code running Motec, Haltech, or Autronic which could be more or less suited to your coding taste, but if they work they work. Thousands of people use them and megasquirt successfully without any consideration for anybody's coding taste.
As an aside, while the MS code isn't exactly open-source (licensing is different) the source is openly-available and the whole point of openly-available source is that it has far more exposure for scrutiny and feedback. More often than not the globe can write better software together than a couple really smart engineers hunkered down. MS code has benefited from its exposure over the years.

The only situation where the code not being written to taste, or even well, is how it may inhibit bug fixing or feature enhancement however the megasquirt code is actively maintained and enhanced regularly by several developers around the world so this is a non-issue. A few individuals like GsLender and Whittlebeast have picked it up and did actually modify it to their needs and I never saw any of them complain that the code was too remedial so I don't see any risk of future support evaporating. There are plenty of people that are happy to jump in and work with it.

You don't have to rewire a plug and play which is the point of that product. You don't have to rewire a non-PNP version either, you just have to make the point-to-point wire connections from the new ECU to the factory ECU plug as an adapter harness or cut off the factory plug.. this is essentially the same thing as an aftermarket radio install with more wires. A full re-wire is of course an option but no more necessary than it is for an EEC.

A/C load, megasquirt handles that the same way the ECU does with closed-loop idle control but if you want you can also send the A/C on input to megasquirt and use it as a modifier to the idle control algorithm and/or timing control if you want to. Voltage compensation is all there too for injector drivers and coil saturation.
As far as miles going down the road, I'd have no problem sending a megasquirt 5,000 miles up the road. There are commercial businesses who manufacture flying drones and run them on megasquirt.

I looked at it 8 years ago and now that I've looked at it closely again things really haven't changed. The factory EEC is not less expensive, it's not easier to work with, it's not more capable, and examining the claim that it's more reliable turned up nothing.

Megasquirt can be less expensive, or more expensive, there's a lot of options here to fit whatever the budget, needs, and desire to "learn it" or "just run it" is. Megasquirt is absolutely easier to work with. Megasquirt is absolutely more capable. For reliability there might be some merit to this for an amateur build of a v2.2 or v3.0 board but not for anything else in the product line.. hell you can run an MS3-Pro underwater because it's completely water-tight.

 

Of course, you're fully entitled to your own opinions on the matter. I meant conformal coating, not potted. No need for it to be fully potted, really.

BTW, that EEC-V must be a really old one because all of mine that I've tuned have solid state caps, not the polymer caps seen in the pic you posted. Also, the EEC-V box incorporates MSD, EDIS8, and the trans controller as well so there's several chips missing from that pic. I'll try to remember to post up a pic of a representative EEC-V soon.

 

Just started messing with MS2 with 3.57 board on my '94. I just hooked it all up last weekend and got the car started and idling, but I need to hook the wideband's controller output signal up to it and see how well autotune works. I've had a PMS on this car, SCT-tuned, used the old SNEEC-ER box for datalogging. Have had a lot of combos and setups on this car over the last 20+ years, have chased mass-air gremlins. want to give speed-density a try. I do like the plug-and-play harness and it fired right up with the base tune after the timing sync and sensor calibration... I like the tunerstudio setup as well... Been lurking in the shadows for a LONG time...

 

Cool deal, welcome to the party!

 

Unless I overlooked it, I haven't seen anyone mention the Stinger PiMPxs ECU. The PiMPxs (fully sequential version of the PiMPx) looks to be a very capable plug & play ECU.
It is MS based, but I believe the quality is a bit higher. Also, I have read and heard great things about the tech help and support from Stinger.

STINGER PERFORMANCE PARTS - 2.3 Turbo Performance Parts for Mustang SVO, Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, Merkur XR4Ti, Pinto, Ranger, and Sand Rails

 

PimpXS/Pimp/etc is megasquirt packaged by the stinger group. Quality is the same (which is good), they just have a few different options than other vendors (like DIY and efisource for example). Their PimpXS ECU is PNP and fully sequential (MS3 based), which is a big win for the ford guys if you don't mind paying a tad more. I imagine DIYautotune will be coming out with MS3PRO for EEC fords which I think would either have an adapter for factory plug or a full drop-on harness like they do with the LS guys.

Side note on the harnesses:
Our foxes and SN-95's are getting old enough where factory wiring and plugs are failing and causing issues so the drop-on harnesses, although a little more expensive, are worth the money for all new high grade wires and connectors ready to plug in. Troubleshooting a bad harness can be a daunting task unless you're Indy2000. This is something the PNP ECU's won't be able to remedy so I'm thinking eventually people will want to gravitate to new drop on harnesses for standalones.