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d347643 -

You have ALOT to learn if you ever want to go fast. I'm not talking about going 13's with 9 seconds worth of parts either. If you want help and advice from a guru and legend like Jay Allen you better just send money and wait in line like the 300 other people that are patiently and happily waiting. I have a Jay Allen cam and I couldn't be happier. After I sent my money and waited my turn patiently Jay called me and talked to me for over an hour about my combo! Jay got me on the right track and opened up my eyes! All I know is my stock 302 with stock cast GT40 heads and intake with Jay's cam and valvetrain went 11.90's in my Notch. I don't think the average Corral member is going that fast with those parts with an ots cam, average advice, a closed mind and pocketbook.

My advice to you is to either find a new hobby or just stick to the Summit tech line because your attitude and recklessness doesn't deserve the help of experts. Good luck!
 
Yes, its apparent that he is very helpful once you pay. Now, as a "potential" consumer how was I suppose to know this? Is it advertised on his site? Word of mouth? I guess my money doesn't jump out of the wallet as fast as others...I don't care who your name is or what your rep is. Even the best cam grinder in the world wouldn't get my business if I didn't like how he acted.
These guys get a TON of "potential consumer" emails everyday :rofl:. I am sure they have found methods to "weed" out the tire kickers, fence sitters and headaches. It is not personal, just business.

So who did you end up getting a cam from anyway? Or are you still undecided?
 
5.uh0, that statement doesn't even make any sense. Fast? It's my daily driver, I have limits. I have another little turbo fox that runs 10.70's with ots parts. Is that fast? No. Is it fast for my budget? yes. Am I happy with it? yes. Not everyone wants to go fast, whatever that means. There is a benefit to custom cams besides a little more power, no? How about driveability? He talked to you for an hour on the phone....this isn't about Jay man. I find it humurous how everyone feels the need to attack me because I said Ed doesn't respond. He has already shown that he wouldn't respond to my questions. I'm not a tire kicker or fence sitter, I wanted to get a custom cam. Like I said before, everyone is different and I don't feel comfortable putting out the money before asking a few basic questions. The sad part is instead of telling me he wouldn't/didn't want to answer those questions he just decided not to. People call me unprofessional because I ask certain questions???? I'm not the business owner here and I certainly would email potential customers instead of posting their personal information on forums like this.

As I also stated previously, he prob has his phone ringing off the hook and losing my business won't put so much as a hiccup in his company BUT I'd be willing to bet he'd be handling this differently if he "needed" business or if his business was suffering. Case in point, I'm building a combo that's been done 1000x times before and because he has tons of people in line it's easy to just pass me by and get the funding from the next guy. Its his business and he can run it how he wants, I never said the guy wasn't an awesome cam grinder. I don't need my hand held, I just don't have the budget to spend money twice. Maybe it's just a personality difference, I don't deal well with arrogant people. I'm done.
 
These guys get a TON of "potential consumer" emails everyday :rofl:. I am sure they have found methods to "weed" out the tire kickers, fence sitters and headaches. It is not personal, just business.

So who did you end up getting a cam from anyway? Or are you still undecided?

He's probably going with a Comp tech line recommended OTS camshaft.
 
no, I'm not going with a comp recommended ots cam. I actually bought a book on cams and cam theory and am going to read up next week when I'm on vacation. Are you slammin on people who get ots cams? haha more arrogance. Maybe its a custom cam thing haha. Not everyone has the money for a custom. Anyway gotta take off, have a final engineering test and then my term is over.
 
it's gettin deep in here...

I will say that I had jay cut a cam for me. i was not thouroughly impressed with his people skills but that is not what he specailizes in. Although it is always a plus in any business but some people just do not possess the gift of gab nor care to.

I have also spoken with Buddy Rawls and he is definitely easy to work with and very throrough in his responses to inquiries.
 
I don't need my hand held, I just don't have the budget to spend money twice. Maybe it's just a personality difference, I don't deal well with arrogant people. I'm done.
Yet that is exactly what your complain is all about, not having your hand held. Or why would an engineering student, as you have presented yourself now....

no, I'm not going with a comp recommended ots cam. I actually bought a book on cams and cam theory and am going to read up next week when I'm on vacation. Are you slammin on people who get ots cams? haha more arrogance. Maybe its a custom cam thing haha. Not everyone has the money for a custom. Anyway gotta take off, have a final engineering test and then my term is over.
.... need to hear from a custom cam designer the basic differences between hydraulic roller and solid roller cam profiles? :confused:

You close up by saying that you do not deal well with arrogant personalities, yet you try to state speculation as facts.....

Something I have realized over the last 2 weeks is you really never get to talk to Ed or Jay. You send them your build sheet and they pick a cam profile that has already been previously designed by them. For some reason I thought they would "specifically" cut a cam to my combo BUT they just pick one of "their" designed cams that should work well with your combo. I have sent more than one email with questions and they never gave me the time of day. It just said send money and you'll get your cam in two weeks or whatever. The whole thing didn't feel right, I'd rather research and get 95% there and save money instead of hoping the grinder and I are on the same page. No bash on any of the custom cam guys here. If any of what I said is wrong then please enlighten me.

Drew
So a little research will place you at 95% of a custom cam designer's knowledge and experience level? Isn't that a little too arrogant to say regarding their expertise? IOW... you are literally practicing what you criticize.

Please, do not misinterpret any of this as negative or against you, it's not but when you approach a professional to contract their services, they are solely responsible for the end product and results since that is what they offer. A curriculum syllabus on their line of work expertise is not included in their inventory of services.
 
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Good morning Joel5.0, glad you could make it :)

1. Having my questions answered is not what I consider having my hand held. Our opinions differ on this and if you knew me on a personal level you would quickly change your mind. Since you enjoy quoting everything I say why not exactly quote my comment on solid and hydro roller and reread.

2. Joel5.0, you surely must know there are multiple engineering fields. Amazing to think that EE's have no experience with camshaft design....surprised? I like your attempted dig on my schooling, however, even the brightest students in our program don't change their own oil.

3. Listen, you know I pm'd you directly with responses to your last comments. I took time out to my busy day to defend myself against comments you had said and instead of being a good sport you are just trying to come down on me some more.

I really don't appreciate the "school" angle you're trying to use with the "engineering" and "syllabus" comments. You insinuation that I'm tainted in some manner is ridiculous....I hope you don't think this way about people who have served in the armed forces. I know that you've spent time out of your day picking through this long thread finding all of my trips or mis- steps and I appreciate that. My question, Joel5.0 is why you sit and watch the thread and decide to jump in when it's finally dying down? Was it too busy before and now is a more appropriate time come in and bash on me? I see you have some strategy and keen reading skills......thanks for making my morning coffee even more enjoyable.

take care,

Drew
 
no, I'm not going with a comp recommended ots cam. I actually bought a book on cams and cam theory and am going to read up next week when I'm on vacation. Are you slammin on people who get ots cams? haha more arrogance. Maybe its a custom cam thing haha. Not everyone has the money for a custom. Anyway gotta take off, have a final engineering test and then my term is over.

If that's what you read then so be it.
 
He says you did not respond to his e-mail and you say you did.If you did then why not post those up as well?I do not know d347643,but I can say I have not got a response from you.After going back and reading some of your post on this forum it would not matter anyway.I can not believe anyone here can justify the way you treat or talk to potential customers.You keep this attitude up and you could be the best cam person in the world and in the end you will still fail.There are only so many nutt swingers.

As far as the payment policy,I know for a fact there are people out there that will take the time to talk to you before payment is given.

I can only imagine that the more you and Jay post, the more business Buddy and other cam people get.

I have never talked with Ed Curtis but will eventually use him for a custom cam for my appplication. Part of the reason is how he deals with BS from tire kickers. I was in business for myself for 5 years, not car related, but dealt with John Q. Public every day. It is amazing how many people think just b/c someone is in business for themselves that someone can automatically give stuff away. Would you go to work for 3 hours once a week for free?? My customers thought I should do just that everyday. Suppose he makes an exception for you, how can he not for the next guy. Suddenly it is Friday, the employees want paid, bank wants its money, power company, phone, still got all your personal bills, etc.......and he has been answering nonpaying questions all week. Guess what, the power, grocery, phone, equipment and employees don't wanna work for free. Why should he??

I am not trying to bust your balls and yes, Jay and Ed can come across a little bit more acidic (sorry Ed and Jay) than Buddy. Of course that means never make Buddy mad, you'll wind up as hog slop or something!:rofl: But the age old adage that the customer is always right is pure BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With the above said, I don't have a clue what I will need in a camshaft. I will have head type, flow data, cc size, car specs and my ultimate desire to have my cake and eat it too. I'll simply tell the chef I am hungry, ready for dinner and have my wallet to pay. What is for dinner??

tim
 
This thread has got a little out of control. We are lucky that we have a couple of cam guru's that chime in to help us out. This is how they make a living,feed their families and support their racing habbits.I give out limited "free" advice as it cost me a sh-- load of money and time in school to get to where I am.It's a small price to pay when building a few thousand $ engine for the knowledge that they have. Don't bust their balls when an emailed question is placed at the bottom of their daily to do list. I thought we were on here trying to help each other out not nick pick like a pissed off ex-wife grow the f--- up
 
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I have never talked with Ed Curtis but will eventually use him for a custom cam for my appplication. Part of the reason is how he deals with BS from tire kickers. I was in business for myself for 5 years, not car related, but dealt with John Q. Public every day. It is amazing how many people think just b/c someone is in business for themselves that someone can automatically give stuff away. Would you go to work for 3 hours once a week for free?? My customers thought I should do just that everyday. Suppose he makes an exception for you, how can he not for the next guy. Suddenly it is Friday, the employees want paid, bank wants its money, power company, phone, still got all your personal bills, etc.......and he has been answering nonpaying questions all week. Guess what, the power, grocery, phone, equipment and employees don't wanna work for free. Why should he??

I am not trying to bust your balls and yes, Jay and Ed can come across a little bit more acidic (sorry Ed and Jay) than Buddy. Of course that means never make Buddy mad, you'll wind up as hog slop or something!:rofl: But the age old adage that the customer is always right is pure BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With the above said, I don't have a clue what I will need in a camshaft. I will have head type, flow data, cc size, car specs and my ultimate desire to have my cake and eat it too. I'll simply tell the chef I am hungry, ready for dinner and have my wallet to pay. What is for dinner??

tim
I do not see this as a "bust your balls statement"I agree with most of what you said.I am not a tire kicker,and I do understand that Ed does have many people just trying to pick his brain.I am going to purchase a cam,but I will also need springs,lifters,ect...I just did not understand why I would have to send $375 dollars to be able to ask "how much (if even avalible)the products will cost.Or if the parts I already have are compatable.If that is the way he chooses to do things that is fine,but he spent more time here attacking me,then it would had taken to answer my questions.He would also have gotten my money(as little as it may be).The post above showing where he responded to me was nothing more than an email telling how much money and where to send it.It did not take into account the other product I wanted to purchase.He may not care,but whether or not he believes it he is hurting his business and his character.

I have read alot of great things about Ed and I am happy he keeps his customers happy.I liked the fact that HE IS NOT ONLY A FORD guy,and he does not charge extra to verify the cam is within spec.


THANKS
JOEY
 
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I guess I just get so pissed at this because of my dad. One of the top 70 mechanics in the states.He's wrote for ASE,been honored at the Atlanta olympics as an alternate fuel expert. I have been blessed to have his know how a phone call away. Now he is sick with Lou Gehrigs. In a wheel chair watching me rebuild the race car. I feel lucky to take him out in his 32 ford 5 window coupe that he built himself. 2200 lbs tremec 5-speed with a small blk chevy stroker. 425 hp and 22 mpg with AC and power windows. This car stuff is bigger then who is faster or what this guy will tell me. All of us share the same passion, respect that and each other. I know this may make me sound like a bit-- but we do alot for what we love and you all should respect each other a little more
 
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Ed, I didn't want you to knock your competitors....that's bs. I am new to the custom cam scene and just thought maybe you guys specialize in different setups. Maybe one guy does more high end cams and the other more street cars, ya know? I guess reading over it I can see how you'd take it that way. Instead of assuming things, why didn't you just ask me instead of fail to respond to my questions? If you guys are all the same then why would I just chose you.....because of your name :rofl:? I did hear your name from other threads but really didn't know anything about you other than you grind cams and you're good. I also didn't lie Ed, you never answered my questions. You can call me a liar or whatever you'd like but fact is this thread doesn't make you look very good from a customer service stand point. It makes you look like an arrogant ##### :shakehead
to the op. Did he even answer your questions you asked? I mean if someones going to grind you a cam those questions need to be answered. At the point you dont know if you want solid or hr thats the cam grinders job to help you decide what would work better in your application. I mean he is being paid to do your cam. To the douche bags saying "do your own research" thats what your paying the cam guy for. lol If he knew exactly what he needed he would get something very close to an ots cam. I dont remember seeing a cam build sheet on google to tell you whether you need a solid or hydro cam. :leghump: At the point you are having trouble contacting the cam guy then get another one. I had been dealing with jay allen on a custom and he walked me through on the phone what he thought i needed for my setup. We agreed to disagree on the path i would take. I want a hr cam that would spin to 8k and he didnt feel comfortable doing that. Pretty stand up thing to do. He coulda just sold me a cam and said have fun but he didnt. I ended up dealing with marc at bulletcams.com. He is one of the pioneers in hi rev hr cams. The guy is a brain surgeon when it comes to cams. He talked to me for what seemed like an hour about my combo from gearing to injectors and of course the usual flow info and ci of the motor. He said what do you want it to make peak at? Cam was in my hands in 5 business days. He even called when it was shipped so i knew it was coming. He didnt have to do any of that. He set me up with the valvesprings and what pressures and height to set them up at. I would never deal with anyone else for a cam after there great customer service. Ive called him countless times about what i should do to make more power even a year after he did the cam he remembers my engine and cam. If hes not available he will call back the same day and not shuck me for some other customer to try to make money. If you feel like you arent getting any info why would you spend money with whomever your having issues with? Name? who cares if your not getting any info on what you need. just an idea call marc and give him a chance you will thank me. cheers guys
 
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I have read alot of great things about Ed and I am happy he keeps his customers happy.I liked the fact that HE IS NOT ONLY A FORD guy,and he does not charge extra to verify the cam is within spec.
THANKS
JOEY
Ed, you grind cams for Cheverolets??? I guess you have to make a livin where you can, but when you do, do my cam, please don't tell anybody you do chevy too!!:crying:

Glad you took no offense to my statements. None was meant. When I was in business, I went above and beyond the call for all my customers. Guess what? They appreciated it for like 3 seconds and then thought it is what I was required to do. Never mind others in the same line of work would have treated them as a number. Guess what else, when something "bigger and better" came along, they left me. The ones that were special to me and I thought me to them, well all but a small few of them left too. For what, to be treated like a number.

I am not a bandwagoner or drum thumper by any means but more power to these guys for saying no. I have never had a problem saying no, or whatever needed saying. But, when I was in business for myself I thought I needed to do whatever, put up with all sorts of BS to appease my customers and potential customers to get their money, to pay my bills, to stay in business. Guess what, the ones who are gonna pay will pay anyways and the ones that aren't are not ever going to. I worked 90+ hours a week. After a year or two, I noticed a trend. The same potential customers wanted tours of my facility at closing times, holidays, etc. Never bought just looked. I would have been much better off telling them something Ed or Jay would!

When I first found Corral.net there were threads such as: "what is a fast combo?" The answer was always: "AFR 165s and FTI cam". Well that put me off at first. But after reading Ed's input here (and Jay's later) I began to appreciate these guys knowledge, relate to how they felt about "tire kickers" and respect how they both deal with them. My combo aint AFR 165s but will have a custom cam. I guess their attitudes won me over.

The OP's questionaire would have put me off too. I would have answered his questions with all the reasons my facility was better than the compettition's. Explaining in great detail what set me apart. The OP, in my opinion has unrealistic expectations. IMHO, nothing would have satisfied his desires or answered his questions completely enough. Would he have selected my facility?? Perhaps, but he would have either not completed his financial obligations to me (unlike Ed and Jay I didn't get all my money upfront) or would have been impossible to please doing us both an injustice.

tim
 
I don't know if some of the comments were directed to me but I'm not the OP. I just chimed in with my opinion on Ed and pissed people off haha.

I guess I just get so pissed at this because of my dad. One of the top 70 mechanics in the states.He's wrote for ASE,been honored at the Atlanta olympics as an alternate fuel expert. I have been blessed to have his know how a phone call away. Now he is sick with Lou Gehrigs. In a wheel chair watching me rebuild the race car. I feel lucky to take him out in his 32 ford 5 window coupe that he built himself. 2200 lbs tremec 5-speed with a small blk chevy stroker. 425 hp and 22 mpg with AC and power windows. This car stuff is bigger then who is faster or what this guy will tell me. All of us share the same passion, respect that and each other. I know this may make me sound like a bit-- but we do alot for what we love and you all should respect each other a little more
good words man, heart felt. I think its time for a group hug. We're all on the same team.

Drew
 
For what it's worth, my 2 cents: The paying customers have to come first period. If you have rudimentary questions use the forums and google like Joel said. You'd be supprised how rewarding it is to answer those basic questions yourself. For anyone to expect these guy's to responded to every email and question that may or may not result in a sale is preposterous. Like TS 95Cobra said, these guys have a business to run and if they want to stay in business they need to work. They can't sit around reading email all day!
To the op, it looks like your on the right track. I've talked with quite a few happy customers of all three (Ed, Jay and Buddy). Good Luck man!!:salute:
 
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In before lock...

Customer:
Business is business, someone can't spend their days telling people on the forums, "hey, cam #1 is the best", that is not how they make money, even if cam #1 is theirs, because of the amount of time and effort involved it takes to sell each cam.
A general rule of thumb, I give out free advice, but I am no expert, nor do I have years and years of experience with people saying that live and die by my product, so if your willing to take free advice, I'm willing to give it, just don't label me a pro.
Like any other organization, I am sure they also try to sell their services to people as well. Ford's job is to say "Chevy sucks, buy a ford, here's why..." and Chevy's job is to say "Ford sucks, and here's why...", without actually saying they suck, because negative advertising is still advertising.
Companies don't gain customers by bashing anyone, competition or customers, however some customers you just don't want.
I forgot who mentioned it, but either Ed, Jay, or Buddy said they would recommend an OTS cam because of the price saving factor. With that being said, unless they charge to answer questions, how can they make money if they simply respond... "FMS 'e-cam' is the best for your setup", simply, they can't. Then after a while, they won't be offering advice to anyone, only friends.
Another general rule, take care of paying customers before non-paying customers...
They have to again, weed out all of the tire kickers and fence sitters who simply want to know the easiest way, rather than getting their elbows a little dirty.

Business: Simply because a customer asks why he should choose your company isn't an automatic invitation to go bashing other companies for their hard work and products. Simply respond... "I've been doing it for years, I love helping other hobbiest, I gotta passion for making everything run better/faster..." Whatever you want, I don't know you or your past, nor will I speak on behalf of it.
For people who actually know what their doing, your process works fine, however I would imagine that you could increase your business (not saying you need to) by just maybe giving a few easy freebies, as well as explain why an FMS or TFS cam isn't that great, I would imagine you would win me over any day of the week if you could relate why cam #1 is better than other stuff. If someone is willing to do that, it's likely I'd buy my next cam, and the cam after that, and the cam after that, from you.

With that being said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I run a OE cam, I want on OTS used cam to save $$$ as I don't have a lot of it. I do not plan on buying a custom cam anytime soon, however If I didn't have a budget, you'd best believe I would be knocking these guys doors down. Instead, I find myself doing the research and homework that is needed in order to put together a good combo. I have, and will continue to read these boards until I go blind because of the amount of information that is given by experts like Jay, Ed, and Buddy. Without guys like you, we would be a bunch of wrench turners, greasy monkeys, and pencil pushers that just share a hobby. Instead this forum is a wealth of information, a network of people and products, and overall a past time.

OP: I understand your upset because you may have gotten the "cold shoulder", however it isn't as if his specific cam is going to make or break your setup. Just don't use his services, and when you do find a service that your happy, then tell the world.... If you don't have an idea of how the process works, don't come on here spouting off. I am def. not knocking you, but you are taking a me vs. the world mentality and it isn't like that. Unfortunately it took 3 pages and almost 100 posts, but you now have purchased a book on cams and theory, which is good because your gather more information making yourself a brighter individual. However, I will put it like this, since you are an EE, you probably spend most of your time talking to people who aren't EE's trying to explain to them in terms they can understand what is the best thing, or the proper transformer, or wire size, or circuit breaker, or whatever... However as an EE, you wouldn't just give out your services for free right? Just taking a shot in the dark here... I am re-wiring my garage for 240v, what size wire, how should I set up my circuit breaker, can I use (2) 120volt and power my 240v transformer, is GE a good brand, does it need to be certified, all of these and more. I'm sure you could at least give me a better idea... however you wouldn't do it without charging, especially if your knowledgeable, and especially if you own/operate a business. What if I, my dad, my friend, my uncle, and 20 other people email you everyday asking for advice, notifying you of changes, potential business, etc. For every 20 people, you get 1 who actually wants your to pay for your services, and is willing to send you $100 before you even pick up the other end to say hello... Your likely to start figuring out how to find more of those customers rather than the other 19. With that in mind, as an EE, with a professional background, that you've worked hard to earn and no one can take it away from you, your more than likely not going to be doing free house calls or run a free-tip hotline. Instead, your going to find a way to charge everyone who even calls your phone number, even if its a penny, and they don't even buy what your offering, your still going to make a little something. However, if you charged $35 every phone call someone made for advice, you would be sure that no one would call it for fun, instead you are assured that with $35, it is likely their not kicking any tires, and that their serious about your services, then on top of the $35 commitment fee, then send you the money in full for the goods or services you offer, your likely to stick with your bread and butter, as opposed to pixie dust and fairy wings..

Hope this helps, sorry for the rant, I just see both sides.
 
I will put it like this, since you are an EE, you probably spend most of your time talking to people who aren't EE's trying to explain to them in terms they can understand what is the best thing, or the proper transformer, or wire size, or circuit breaker, or whatever... However as an EE, you wouldn't just give out your services for free right? Just taking a shot in the dark here... I am re-wiring my garage for 240v, what size wire, how should I set up my circuit breaker, can I use (2) 120volt and power my 240v transformer, is GE a good brand, does it need to be certified, all of these and more. I'm sure you could at least give me a better idea... however you wouldn't do it without charging, especially if your knowledgeable, and especially if you own/operate a business. What if I, my dad, my friend, my uncle, and 20 other people email you everyday asking for advice, notifying you of changes, potential business, etc. For every 20 people, you get 1 who actually wants your to pay for your services, and is willing to send you $100 before you even pick up the other end to say hello... Your likely to start figuring out how to find more of those customers rather than the other 19. With that in mind, as an EE, with a professional background, that you've worked hard to earn and no one can take it away from you, your more than likely not going to be doing free house calls or run a free-tip hotline. Instead, your going to find a way to charge everyone who even calls your phone number, even if its a penny, and they don't even buy what your offering, your still going to make a little something. However, if you charged $35 every phone call someone made for advice, you would be sure that no one would call it for fun, instead you are assured that with $35, it is likely their not kicking any tires, and that their serious about your services, then on top of the $35 commitment fee, then send you the money in full for the goods or services you offer, your likely to stick with your bread and butter, as opposed to pixie dust and fairy wings..
Very well said man....very, very well.
 
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