I lost 3rd and OD and it turned out that my 3-4 shaft was broken.

 

I lost 3rd and OD and it turned out that my 3-4 shaft was broken.

If that were the case, I don't think the car would be driveable still? OR would it? How can you tell without taking the trans. out again?

 

I drove the car home that way in 1st and 2nd. I think you might have to take it out either way. MYLITTLEHO should be chiming in soon. He's very knowledgeable with AODs.

 

Input shaft, I've snapped 2.
Unless AOD-E's are different which I highly doubt.

 

AODE's are definitely different when it comes to the input shaft and the 3-4 shaft, it doesn't use the concentric shaft like the AOD, it uses a single input shaft and a "stub" shaft instead (and the torque converter has a clutch to do lockup, instead of the AOD's shaft lockup).

Now, one thing that has me confused is your reference to having only 4 clutches instead of 5. I'm more familiar with the 4r70w, but I'm pretty sure that you should have the 5 clutches in there, any adjustment of clearances should be done with the snap ring. In fact, normally V8 applications should have 6 clutches (again, this *may* be different with the AODE). Anyway, 3rd and 4th gear problems could definitely be related to problems with the Direct clutch.

If you haven't already checked it out, see for some good info on these transmissions, it might shed some more light on your problem.

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/index.html#

Here's my current mess...look familiar??

Hope this helps!
Justin

 

I have the same exact problem, but i have sediment (sp?) in my pan, so im guessing its the clutches but i guess it could also be my shaft. i have a reg AOD, it was never abused. i drive to school everyday with 2 gears but i dont go over 35mph so its good for now. my lentech should be at my door in 2 weeks. i think getting a tranny rebuilt is a waste of time and money, id rather just buy a new one and start fresh. thats just me though.

 

YES, THE AODE AND AOD DO HAVE DIFFERENT INTERNAL PARTS!!! The AODE direct drive dose have 5 clutches in the drum. My original drum was almost welded togther when I took it apart. That's the way I bought the car from someone. The cause of that was the lack of fluid being pumped to the direct drive. The pump gears (outer gear) was chewed up by a peice of metal somewhere in there, and replaced the pump too. I had to get a new direct drive drum from the transmission shop and it was just a little different. I assembled it with the new clutches and tried 3 different snap ring and couldnt get the right clearance. They told me to take out the very bottom clutch and just run steel on steel, because the steels don't move, just the clutches. The reason for the drum difference was the new drum, where the snap ring sets, was just a tiny bit lower than the original drum. So with that I'm guessing that's where the problem is, eventhough the clearance was within the specs with the ATSG manual. Besides it shouldn't be a broken shaft, the transmission (after rebuild) only has about 5 miles on it. Thanks for your info Justin.

 

Tranny mileage makes no difference, mine had less than 2 when I snapped my shaft. But then again being an AOD-E......?

 

For the AODE, it's unlikely that the stub shaft would have broken, possible, but unlikely. From the sound of it, I get the feeling that maybe you have the wrong direct drum. There are a few different direct drums, AOD, AODE, and 4r70w (which hold 6 clutches instead of 5). I wonder if you got hold of a 4r70w or AOD drum??? I also found that the reverse clutch pack changed its design (I guess in 98), when I was rebuilding mine, it would only accept 3 clutches, while the older ones would accept 4.

Justin

 

mustanggt95,

Hey question for ya (since you rebuilt your trans)... I have the ATSG manual too, and I'm a little worried about installing the input shaft seals (teflon??). The rebuild kit that I got from PA included 2 teflon seals (just like stock). The rebuild manual says that I should have 2 scarf cut seals, but the PA ones aren't scarf cut. Did the kit that you have include cut seals or solid ones? If they were solid, how did ya get them on the input shaft???

Thanks for any help!

Justin

 

Have you been using the same converter this whole time.. the converter has an internal clutch that activates 3rd and 4th (or so I understand) the clutch can fail keeping the car from shifting into 3rd and overdrive... try doing a google search or go to TCCOA and check them out.. they are AOD-E guru's over there...

also you can pull the valvebody and see if the 2-3 shift valve is stuck. I rebuilt my transmission and it would not shift into overdrive.. come to find out I had installed the 3-4 valve dry.. all I had to do was pull the valve and work it back and forth a few times to lube up the action and it worked fine ever since...

 

i lost first and third first, the others soon followed this was on a 91 i had in hs and i ragged the **** out of it, shifting 1-d-1 etc

 

The stamped steel direct drums from later models will swap in place of the cast direct
drum in earlier AODs. When I rebuilt and upgraded mine, I used the stamped direct drum
from early 90's cars. Gave me room for more clutches.

The only thing that applies when the trans tries to shift into 3rd is the direct drum.
For OD, the direct drum stays applied and the OD band applies. That suggests there's
a problem with your direct clutch.

If you've got a different direct drum than the cast drum, it must be a later model
stamped steel drum. The first version of that held one additional stock thickness
clutch set, and the second (later 4R70W) version holds two additional clutch sets.
So, there's something definitely wrong if you had to put less clutch discs in there.
Also, did you put the 2 small teflon sealing rings on the front snout of the output
shaft? They seal the pressure going into the direct clutch.

As for solid teflon rings versus the cut ("scarfed") ones, see the first article in the
tccoa.com tech/transmission section. In the chapters on building a bullet proof
4R70W, he outlines just how to go about putting the solid ones on and installing them.

 

PS - does anybody know how thick that little bar is that you use across the pump
mounting face to check clearance on the intermediate clutch and for the plastic
thrust washer just in back of the pump? I've read that it is exactly .750" thick.
You have to know that to make use of the clearances or distances measured when
using it and a depth mike to check those tolerances as given in any rebuild manual I've ever seen.

 

mustanggt95,

Hey question for ya (since you rebuilt your trans)... I have the ATSG manual too, and I'm a little worried about installing the input shaft seals (teflon??). The rebuild kit that I got from PA included 2 teflon seals (just like stock). The rebuild manual says that I should have 2 scarf cut seals, but the PA ones aren't scarf cut. Did the kit that you have include cut seals or solid ones? If they were solid, how did ya get them on the input shaft???

Thanks for any help!

Justin

Justin,
I believe my rebuild kit had the teflon scarf cut seals. They are a PITA to put on because you don't want to spread them to far appart, or they'll break. When your assembling your tranny, inorder to hold the scarf cut seals, you'll need to have vaselane (misspelled? LOL) to help hold them together from getting caught on the edge of where they sit. I don't know much about PA rebuild kits, the one I used was ALTO, made in the USA, and it came with 100% of every thing, to rebuild the tranny. The only thing it didn't come with is new bushing seals, which had to be purchased seperatly. I did repalce them too, another PITA!!! Hope this will help you out some. If you have any other ?'s feel free to ask.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I've been out of town since Veteran's Day. Nice little, much needed, vacation.

Nick

 

Question for Nick

Do you happen to know the thickness of the Ford End Play and Intermediate
Clutch Depth Checking bar? I believe I read awhile ago that it's .75", but
I can't find any definite into on it.

Thanks!
macx

 

Do you happen to know the thickness of the Ford End Play and Intermediate
Clutch Depth Checking bar? I believe I read awhile ago that it's .75", but
I can't find any definite into on it.

Thanks!
macx

marx,
Not quite sure what it would be exactly. I know they do make different thicknesses for those plastic thrust washers. Did you take a measurment of your end play before taking it appart? That will give you a good idea as to if your within your specs. still. I'll have to get back to you, I'll look in my ATSG manual and see if there is any info regarding that. Do yourself a favor and get one of those manuals, they are the best one's out there. The ATSG manual is used by alot of transmission shops and dealships, you can get one for 14 or 15 dollars at your local transmission shop. DON'T GET THE CHILTONS OR HANES MANUALS FOR REBUILDING, even though they have better pics, in black and white. I got the Chilton manual just to help me in identifing parts a little more easily. The ATSG manual gives you a step by step tear down, and rebuild, and what tool you'll need to do it yourself. If you can't get the tools, go to a tranny shop in your area and see if you can rent theirs or if they can do it for you.

 

The only thing that applies when the trans tries to shift into 3rd is the direct drum.
For OD, the direct drum stays applied and the OD band applies. That suggests there's
a problem with your direct clutch.

but this is an AOD-E he is talking about and there is a clutch inside the converter that also is applied during lockup which is also known to fail... So
if the converter goes south the transmission won't shift into 3rd either.. BTW I have the 6 friction Direct Drvie Drum out of a 80's F-150.. it is 6 friction and a cast drum.

 

So the converter is not interchangable between an AOD and an AOD-E?

Thanks in advance.
Mark

 

Nick,

Thanks for the response... I ended up calling PA and they said that I could scarf cut the seals myself to install them (short of having the correct tools).

Mark, you're correct, converters are not normally interchangeable between an AOD and AODE/4r70W

Justin

 

but this is an AOD-E he is talking about and there is a clutch inside the converter that also is applied during lockup which is also known to fail... So
if the converter goes south the transmission won't shift into 3rd either.. BTW I have the 6 friction Direct Drvie Drum out of a 80's F-150.. it is 6 friction and a cast drum.

I'm definitely not as versed as you in these tranny teardowns/rebuilds, (in fact used lots of your valuable info when tearing down my AODE...thank you!!!). Just an observation though, I'm guessing that even if the converter clutch failed, you *should* still have 3rd and 4th, the problem would be that they wouldn't lockup (you'd have a slipping converter, not optimum, but it should still work). At some point, the ECU usually commands converter to lockup, but you can drive in 3rd and OD with the converter "unlocked". (unlike the old AOD, where 3rd would "partially" lockup, and OD would always be locked)

Justin

 

Nick -
I've already got the ATSG manual and it refers to the tool but doesn't
give the thickness.

I've found it's an exact copy of the AOD info in the Lincoln Mk VII manual
I got a little while ago. Same illustrations and text even.

I had to put a different pump in the trans, so the old end play dimension doesn't
apply.

I made myself an H gauge out some 1" square tube that I checked for flatness
and drilled some holes thru it for my dial indicator depth probe. I've got my
end play figured out now, but can't relate to the manual's spec for intermediate
clutch clearance unless I find out that tool thickness.

I've read on one good 4R70W site that clearance is supposed to be .010 to .020,
and without the tool, the top steel should be (flush? or) just below the surface
against that the intermed clutch retainer butts up against when the pump is
installed. Makes sense, because the difference there would be the effective
intermed clutch clearance. As of now, I've converted to the 4R70W 4 plate
clutch (found a good used pressure plate which by the way is marked "4 plate"
at a local rebuilder and added another friction & steel set), and depending on
which combination of steels I use, can get anything from .040" to .020" difference
between the top steel and that surface. Would like to get it right, though, of course!

 

I'm definitely not as versed as you in these tranny teardowns/rebuilds, (in fact used lots of your valuable info when tearing down my AODE...thank you!!!). Just an observation though, I'm guessing that even if the converter clutch failed, you *should* still have 3rd and 4th, the problem would be that they wouldn't lockup (you'd have a slipping converter, not optimum, but it should still work). At some point, the ECU usually commands converter to lockup, but you can drive in 3rd and OD with the converter "unlocked". (unlike the old AOD, where 3rd would "partially" lockup, and OD would always be locked)

Justin

Not knowing with the AOD-E but with the AOD... the 1-2 spline inside the converter spins freely.. 1st and 2nd slip.. 3rd and 4th DON'T. The 3/4 spline that the lock-up shaft fits into inside the converter is literally WELDED to the case of the converter. there is no slipping at all.. 3rd is locked and is a 1:1 ratio (engine to transmission).. see 1st and 2nd slip so the shifts are nice and smooth and there is hardly any clutch damage because the fluid in the converter acts as a buffer so to speak... 3rd gear and 4th gear are directly driven off of the engine.. imagine the the lockup shaft being welded directly to the output shaft of the engine... because that is basically what it is.. (atleast on an AOD) the engine it turning at 3000 rpms or higher and then the clutches in the direct drive drum are employed making the final connection between the output of the motor, to the output shaft on the transmission... Lock-up is VERY violent, it tears up the direct drive clutches (much like revving a 5 speed car to 3000rpms and just dumping the clutch), lock-up can break the lockup shaft, it can break the direct drive drum it can break the converter (all of which have happened to me personally!) the AOD-E have a clutch in the converter along with the direct drive drum to keep from breaking things...

The only way 3rd would slip is if you had a NON-lockup converter..

 

Nick,

Thanks for the response... I ended up calling PA and they said that I could scarf cut the seals myself to install them (short of having the correct tools).

Mark, you're correct, converters are not normally interchangeable between an AOD and AODE/4r70W

Justin

Don't bother trying to cut them yourself, its a major PITA. Just save yourself a headache and put a coupel dollars out for them.

 

Nick -
I had to put a different pump in the trans, so the old end play dimension doesn't apply.

I made myself an H gauge out some 1" square tube that I checked for flatness
and drilled some holes thru it for my dial indicator depth probe. I've got my
end play figured out now, but can't relate to the manual's spec for intermediate clutch clearance unless I find out that tool thickness.

I've read on one good 4R70W site that clearance is supposed to be .010 to .020, and without the tool, the top steel should be (flush? or) just below the surface against that the intermed clutch retainer butts up against when the pump is installed. Makes sense, because the difference there would be the effective intermed clutch clearance. As of now, I've converted to the 4R70W 4 plate clutch (found a good used pressure plate which by the way is marked "4 plate" at a local rebuilder and added another friction & steel set), and depending on which combination of steels I use, can get anything from .040" to .020" difference between the top steel and that surface. Would like to get it right, though, of course!

The top steel in any drum should NOT touch the retaining ring (clip). If that does happen you'll burn up the clutches in there very fast. But on the same note, if you have to much gap there you'll have no pressure, just slippage, on the clutches. There is a specific gap between the snap ring and the top steel. So long as the steel and snap ring come together, with in specs., while engaging your fine. Look in your manual get the gap specs, and see if your with in the range. Then take a air hose and apply it to one of the ports while sealing the other hole up, hole in the inside of the drum usually on the bottom. You'll be able to see the clutch/steel set apply, and press against the snap ring.