I saw the video on youtube since I'm subscribed to his channel and was very surprised to hear that was on 93 octane with 13+ compression. I thought that was not possible, but I bet every carefully selected part adds to the combo. Congrats Ed on being part of that very impressive street combo. Btw, does the owner even posts here?

 

Nuckin futz what that Higgins Cleveland style heads/intake can do.

Here's a 900+ HP 460

 

oh my. wonder what the dynamic c/r is.

 

I didn't design the camshaft profile with DCR in mind.

It's BS in my opinion but it does keep the internet happy.

 

that's Doc's Notch although seems like he hasn't been here in some time

427" Small Block Ford
Dart Aluminum Block with Lunati Crank, Oliver Rods, and CP Pistons
13.2 Compression Ratio, Run on 93 Octane Pump Gas
Higgins Race Heads Cleveland Cylinder Head and Intake Manifold Package
Outlaw Racecraft Custom Headers and Exhaust.
Liberty 5 Speed Clutch Assisted Transmission
Black Magic Next Gen Clutch
Tuned by Me with Holley EFI.

 

that's Doc's Notch although seems like he hasn't been here in some time

Havent been on here in a while, i check in ever few months to see if i am missing anything. How have you been Paul?

So what is the trick to getting a 13.2:1 compression engine to run off pump gas?

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In my opinion it is all about the combination, these cylinder heads have a VERY efficient chamber, and are dont really need much timing to get the job done. The cam also plays a big role, but there are guys in Australia with similar combos that run a little more compression and much more aggressive cams on pump gas.

What they are not telling you is about the fuel. 93 What? There are many versions of this fuel. Is it true pump gas? Is it race fuel made with less than 10 hydrocarbons> Is it oxygenated? Go figure.

What Ed did not mention in the original post is that it is 93 octane from Sunoco, 10 fresh gallons and the other 3-4 in the tank had been sitting for about a year. Maybe the 3 or 4 gallons soaked some oxygen up from sitting so long...

See, that's what I'm wondering, but the car community has a habit of hiding information and being incredibly dishonest. However, if the car truly runs on pump gas with no additives then that's awesome! What is the science behind running pump gas with a very high compression engine? This information could help the entire community, from every engine size and build.

Very impressive build, and it's also another reason I'm considering a 351 stroker combination.

Nothing to hide, I have a thread on the NA section at yellowbullet documenting the engine build... Thank you for the compliment.

 

So what is the trick to getting a 13.2:1 compression engine to run off pump gas?

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Cam

 

What about the cam is special?

 

Compression and displacement are the T&A of the engine world.

 

What they are not telling you is about the fuel. 93 What? There are many versions of this fuel. Is it true pump gas? Is it race fuel made with less than 10 hydrocarbons> Is it oxygenated? Go figure.

 

See, that's what I'm wondering, but the car community has a habit of hiding information and being incredibly dishonest. However, if the car truly runs on pump gas with no additives then that's awesome! What is the science behind running pump gas with a very high compression engine? This information could help the entire community, from every engine size and build.

Very impressive build, and it's also another reason I'm considering a 351 stroker combination.

 

 

Total Inductions Tuning Solutions: 860-282-****
Now there's a phone number a guy is likely to remember!

Edit: post was censored, look at the bottom of the dyno sheet.
Jay

 

Not hating anything. Just pointing out facts. Not all fuel is created equal. Sure it my be 93 octane, tell me where you bought it and what refinery made it. Come up here and buy fuel in the rocky mt area and make the same numbers. By they way we only have 91 as 93 is not needed for the altitude. And no B.S. corrections. Run the car at Bandimere to get the same times. Your good but not that good.Wanna bet

 

Not hating anything. Just pointing out facts. Not all fuel is created equal. Sure it my be 93 octane, tell me where you bought it and what refinery made it.

I'll bite - besides ethanol content, what makes any pump 93 perform different from any other? I know different stations use different detergents/additives/branding, but as long as it meets the 93 octane rating, what measurable performance gains do you see?

 

Ill cut and paste my dyno post from the YB thread here for anyone interested.

So, obviously I did not make it to dragweek. We hurt some parts in the bottom end on the engine dyno and I was not able to make up the time lost.
Here is the engine completed, in the car.




But now for the good news. I got the car running and driving about 2 weeks ago, put about 10 street miles on it and went to the dyno last friday. I went into the day with the goal of making sure the combination was happy on pump gas, if possible, if the engine showed any signs it did not like the pump gas, the plan was to stop and come back with good fuel. We had C12 in the tank on the engine dyno, and the tuning window was so wide on the race fuel, that I thought I could get away with pump gas. So the first pull at the chassis dyno, I had the air fuel target at 12.5:1 and the timing at 26 degrees. I know from the engine dyno session, that at 29 degrees this thing is happy.

So first pull I was shocked to see 725rwhp, so was Paul at Total Induction where I was renting the dyno. We looked at the data, only thing I saw there as a point of concern was we are only seeing 6” of crankcase vacuum, but everything else looked happy, oil pressure was solid, air fuel was a little rich but close enough to where I knew the holley could keep up. This run I pulled it to about 8000rpm. The rest of the day I stopped the pulls between 8300-8500rpm. We could not get the car and the inductive pickup to co-operate, so I did my best to guess the RPM at peak HP by looking at dyno MPH vs my DS sensor and RPM in the datalog.



After the first pull we pulled a little bit of fuel out of it and I also adjusted the vacuum pump regulator. Next pull netted 742rwhp, but it only picked up 1” of crankcase vacuum, I decided to not mess with the regulator anymore because it should have been more than 1” as much as I moved the regulator. The oil pan has a small leak and also, I want to verify that my sensor for the holley is reading correctly before I go any further. So we added a degree of timing after that and it picked up another 7hp and we were at 749rwhp. Added one more degree of timing and it made 760rwhp. We were now at 29 degrees of timing and the fuel curve was looking happy. We tried a 12.9:1 AFR target and it picked up a small amount at peak, but lost more down low, so we stuck with 12.7:1 AFR where it seemed happier overall.



All of the above numbers were run thru the 3” mufflers and tailpipes. The dyno shop is in a semi residential neighborhood so we didn’t want to piss the anyone off too early in the day. So the plan was to get the tuneup right and pull the caps on the x-pipe to see what it did without the restriction of the catback and tailpipes. Interestingly enough, it picked up only a few HP at peak, but down low it gained 10-15hp in some places, which should really help shift recovery. After all of the testing, the best run we had was 765rwhp, peaking around 76-7700 rpm and carrying it out to about 8000-8200rpm. I am extremely happy with the results, I didn’t go into the day trying to make a number, so all of that was just icing on the cake. The car is an absolute monster on pump gas, and I was unsure of how it would go on pump at 13.2:1 static compression ratio, but the plugs did not show anything to make us the least bit nervous all day. I do need to work on the entry into the air pan though, we closed the hood and it lost a bunch of power. I know it is on a stationary dyno but I am going to see if I can test the car with the hood on and off of the car to see if it makes any difference. I really do not want to put a forward facing scoop on the car.

Another thing to note is that i should be seeing around 12-14" of pan vacuum, and that is probably worth a little bit more power with the ring package in the engine.

 

Congrats on that beast! What does the rest of the drivetrain consists of if you don't mind me asking?

 

It had a Black Magic adjustable clutch, Liberty’s LSC5100 transmission, and a 8.8 rear with 35 spline axles and a 3.27 gear. The transmission has no overdrive so it is geared to race in 1-4 and 5th is the cruise gear. It has a 3.89 first to get the starting line ratio as high as i can and still have a manageable cruise rpm

 

Doc, Thanks for the useful,info. Most are not willing to share this. A lot of us here appreciate it however. i don't like to call B.S. on any ones build. And I'm not doing that here.

Laminar, Most all the detergents are the same. The difference many. Race fuel use the cream of the crop hydrocarbons and less of them. Refineries use anything that will make fuel to a certain spec. Colder climates refineries use butane to up the octane. race fuels use toulene. California mandates pump gas to be oxygenated for better emissions. I know of know other state that require this. You can buy race gas thats oxygenated. Race fuels can be the same octane with different flame speeds and more consistent. Try that with pump gas. Higher elevation states don't make 93 octane.

 

Race fuels can be the same octane with different flame speeds and more consistent. Try that with pump gas.

This is something I've harped on a lot. Everyone seems to think that a higher octane rating means that it burns slower, but that's not necessarily true.

In your view, when someone says they made power on "93 pump gas," what would make it a "real" pump gas build or not?

 

I found this article to have some useful insights.

Understanding compression on a pump gas street motor

 

Nice job!!!
Most don't realize what it takes to accomplish this. A lot of attention to detail and picking parts that work together.

 

2HP/cu-in is impressive. Most are happy getting 1.5 HP/cu-in out of their pump gas engines naturally aspirated. Granted a quick napkin calculation says this cost at least 2x what a more typical build would.

 

Doc, Love the build hope to see it run next year at DW! What fuel injection system are you using? What are you using for the cam sensor?

Thanks,

Russell

 

It isnt a budget build by any means but it is not 2x what a "more typical build" costs, whatever more typical means. The higgins heads are only a little more money than a set of high ports with a ported edelbrock 2828 or CHI 4.0 intake. Besides the headers there is nothing that is big money on the build compared to what you would need for a 7500-8000rpm inline headed engine.

 

It's an aluminum short block, right?. I know you picked it up used like 7 years ago, but I was thinking about piecing it together with new parts today.

 

Yes, aluminum shortblock that used to be the project 666 stangtv car's engine. It still has the crank frm that setup, we put an oliver rod in the engine and went to 2.000 journals to make room for a bigger cam core in the future. Even piecing it together with new parts, if you were to build a typical windsor build, say 650-700 hp, with nice parts, a setup with these heads isnt going to cost that much more, but it will make 200ish more HP

 

Figured I would post here to keep this updated if anyone is interested. Copied and pasted from my yellowbullet thread.

10/6/2020
Finally making progress with this thing. Got out once last year late October and had problems getting the car down the track. 2020 has been a crazy year as well. With a new baby coming in November i spent most of my free time getting the house in order before i ran the car.

Got out a few weeks ago and the car was still not going straight and there was a crazy vibration that I thought was the rear wheels. Bought a bubble balancer and balanced the slicks, and had my chassis shop, Outlaw Racecraft, rework the ARB to hopefully make it work better.
ARB before
View attachment 146148
ARB after
View attachment 146149
Paul moved the tab up on the framerail and machined the ends down about 3” to stiffen things up and get the angles right.

Decided last minute to do some 1/8th mile racing over the weekend to get some laps in at the Doc Z street shootout. First time they had a NA class also. The class was basically no rules other than no nitrous anywhere on the car, no tube chassis cars, and have to complete a short cruise.

Got in early, got teched, made the cruise and came back for test passes. First test pass i set the 2step at 5400rpms and it just knocked the tire off and went a 1.5x sixty foot. Second test pass i put the 2step at 5000rpms and it still wasnt great but it at least got down the track without completely killing the tires, but it was driving thru the clutch badly. I think on the first test pass i short shifted the car while it was spinning and the car had no ground speed, tugged the clutch down so far and glazed the disc a bit. This would be a problem for most of the day.

Went to the drivers meeting to figure out first round pairings. Drew a big tire nova with a lenco. After the meeting i went back and added a little bit of weight to the clutch and got into the lanes. On the pass i would say we left the starting line just about even and i got out on him about 300 feet before i started driving thru the clutch. Data showed that i was on the limiter 3.4 seconds into the run in 3rd gear. I pulled 4th just to try to stay out in front and took the win.

For the final round I was racing a big block nova, I wanted to put more clutch in it but had no time between rounds so i just got it in the lanes and didnt start the car till we were ready to run in an effort to cool the clutch as much as possible. That round ended up being my best pass of the day, and the clutch final didnt slip all the way thru 3rd gear. I ran a 5.998 at 118mph, and won that race taking home the win in the NA class. Data showed the clutch was still pretty lazy in first gear and was on the limiter in 3rd before the traps. Overall i was thrilled with how the car did. This was the first 1/8th mile pass on the new setup under power and i was able to get some great data to use on the next time out. View attachment 146150
View attachment 146151
View attachment 146153



10/28/2020
made a few laps last week and put together a little YouTube video about it.

It was a good way to end the season. Wasted the first half of the day with not enough launch RPM but once i raised that back up the car started coming around and i was able to make my first 2 passes under power to the 1320’ stripe.

View attachment 153655

 

Much love to this. Awesome to see!

Space Balls GIF - Spaceballs Holyshit Holy - Discover & Share GIFs

 

holy s**t is right man!

are you gonna try E85?

 

Compression went up a little bit this winter, so I am going to try some different fuels, c85, and c12 to start

Another example of how Ed knows how to design a cam to make big power.

Saw on ZSR's website that Ed designed a cam for a 427 with a 240cc HP head that made 750 crank.

If you want to be serious about making power, call Ed Curtis.

To that point, it makes power and doesn’t beat stuff up. We could have been more aggressive but Ed knows i drive the car and gave me something that wont kill the valvetrain in 500 miles. He helped get me the right spring, retainer, locks, and lifter for the engine. T he car drives better than it did with the 700hp highport setup. I can lug the car down the road at 2000rpm in high gear no problem. With the highport stuff it didnt start cleaning up till 2400rpm. Cant say enough good things about how the valvetrain performs in this setup

I wanna know where he got those headlights from.

Parts from the retrofit source installed by me. Lots of work, but worth the result.

 

I love this freaking build!

 

Another example of how Ed knows how to design a cam to make big power.

Saw on ZSR's website that Ed designed a cam for a 427 with a 240cc HP head that made 750 crank.

If you want to be serious about making power, call Ed Curtis.

 

Another example of how Ed knows how to design a cam to make big power.

Saw on ZSR's website that Ed designed a cam for a 427 with a 240cc HP head that made 750 crank.

If you want to be serious about making power, call Ed Curtis.

Is this it? https://shop.zsrengines.com/products/sportsman-pump-gas-438-760hp

 

I wanna know where he got those headlights from.