Victor Juniors or save up for Air Flow Research 205cc

67mike · Mar 11, 2005

I am building a 393w with 9.5:1 CR.

I have Eddie RPM heads......which I am considering selling.

I can get some vic jr's for relatively little more money.

QUESTION:

Are stock Vic Jr's worth bothering with, or should I just wait and buy the 205;s down the line when I have cash, if I ever have the cash????

xsvstang · Mar 11, 2005

I am in a similar situation and am curious about the same thing. I have a 408w at the machine shop now.
What are you hoping for HP out of the 393? Maybe that would provide a better answer? What head do you need to obtain X RWHP?

Noslo5.0 · Mar 11, 2005

Buy a set of those 205cc Pro whatever heads off of Ebay ($539) from TMD and tell me how they work

67mike · Mar 11, 2005

Noslo5.0 said:
Buy a set of those 205cc Pro whatever heads off of Ebay ($539) from TMD and tell me how they work

There is a MASSIVE post on here about those.......it is titled "my pro comp australlian heads have arrived" or something like that.............

Basically they are not a great investment!

Shifter · Mar 11, 2005

I agree that it depends on your goals.

If you are doing a 393 with 425 rwhp goals in mind then I'd do the Vic jr's.....

If you are looking to go crazy than the AFR205's might be cheaper than porting the jr's...

67mike · Mar 11, 2005

I just need something that will work in a sunny day hotrod. No track time.

Nothing exotic........just need to keep up with my bud's Chevy ll with 454 (mostly stock).

I am actually thinking The RPM's will work for now.............They worked very well on my 351W in this car........If it moves my power band down to 5000rpm.....whoopie! It means my valve springs last that much longer.

Looking at the flow numbers.....the Vic jr is to the RPM as the 205 is to the Vic Jr......worth about 30hp.

So, I will be down 30 or 40 hp compared to Vic Jrs (that is if the combo...cam..was optimum for the vic jrs).......still it should haul my 3000ld car like crazy!!!!!!

BigDaddy LTD LX · Mar 11, 2005

Don't even consider the 205 AFR a "crazy" head compared to the Vic jr.

It's just a head done right. The Vic jr has slightly larger ports BTW.

'69Stang · Mar 11, 2005

I'd go with the Vic Jr's if money is an issue (when isn't it). It should be a perfect match for the cubes. I'd be suprised if you could tell the difference between the Vic Jr's and the AFR 205's by s SOTP meter. Actually, I'd like to see a dyno comparison between AFR 205's and Vic Jr's on the same engine 393 - 408 cubes. I'm not sure there would be much of a difference.

67mike · Mar 11, 2005

[QUOTE='69Stang]I'd go with the Vic Jr's if money is an issue (when isn't it). It should be a perfect match for the cubes. I'd be suprised if you could tell the difference between the Vic Jr's and the AFR 205's by s SOTP meter. Actually, I'd like to see a dyno comparison between AFR 205's and Vic Jr's on the same engine 393 - 408 cubes. I'm not sure there would be much of a difference.[/QUOTE]

Go to AFR's website and look at the MM&FF shootout....the 205's SPANK the vic Jrs on the dyno....exact same engine......and I am not a fan of AFR!

'69Stang · Mar 11, 2005

67mike said:
Go to AFR's website and look at the MM&FF shootout....the 205's SPANK the vic Jrs on the dyno....exact same engine......and I am not a fan of AFR!

Hmmm, I looked and couldn't find it. I'd like to see those results. What was the name of the article because it wasn't under the dyno section?

67mike · Mar 11, 2005

[QUOTE='69Stang]Hmmm, I looked and couldn't find it. I'd like to see those results. What was the name of the article because it wasn't under the dyno section?[/QUOTE]

You go to "articles" it is at the very bottom of page

Unltimate Guide to 5.0 Cylnder Heads, Part 6
Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford

You will see the Vic Jr's flow the least of the group.

BUT, if you put the same amount of dollars into the Vic Jr's as the 205s cost.......ie/ port the vic jrs......well they CAN outflow the AFRs....Keith Craft's ads show that he gets more flow from Vic Jrs than AFR 225s!!!!!!! :evilgrin:

'69Stang · Mar 11, 2005

67mike said:
You go to "articles" it is at the very bottom of page

Unltimate Guide to 5.0 Cylnder Heads, Part 6
Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford

You will see the Vic Jr's flow the least of the group.

BUT, if you put the same amount of dollars into the Vic Jr's as the 205s cost.......ie/ port the vic jrs......well they CAN outflow the AFRs....Keith Craft's ads show that he gets more flow from Vic Jrs than AFR 225s!!!!!!! :evilgrin:

Ahhh, thank you. That makes sense. And they are still a good, cost-effective option out of the box. Thanks for the info.

67mike · Mar 11, 2005

Yes I agree with you. They also KICK SERIOUS BUTT if you get someone like TEA or KC to port them.

YSIGONZO · Mar 11, 2005

But you dont have to do that with the 205 head.

Look at my numbers, with BOX STOCK AFR 205.....

Enough potential? Imagine if I were running an intercooler......

YSIGONZO · Mar 11, 2005

BTW I guarantee you can get AFR 205's for less than the ported Vic Jr's. Unless you buy used Vic's....

Get ahold of Eagle on here.

67mike · Mar 11, 2005

I will save my pennies for some AFRs.....maybe by that time they will have come down slightly in price and use helicoils?????

PS....really nice numbers with your car!

Badboss351 · Mar 11, 2005

On that test take a look at the compression difference, not to mention they used one cam. When everything is even, then the results will be alot closer. If you can't come up with the cash for the 205's, then get the jr's. Then later on, if/when you want to step up, have the Jr's ported. I have a guy that has run 8.50's @ 150+ with a 408, hyd. roller cam(.550" lift), a mod'd D1, stg III jr's, and a stg II TFS R Box intake set-up. So they can keep up with the best of them.... But, if you don't want to step up in the future, then the AFR's the way to go. If you really want a head that will out do the jr's, and AFR's, then go with the new highports.

Jason@AFR · Mar 12, 2005

Ok, to straighten a few points....flow is what sells, therefore a BIG sexy number is what you see out there, those of you saying "You could always port the (Insert name here)" instead of buying an AFR do have a point, but here are some questions on those "Ported" heads you are boasting, What CC are they finished? At what point (lift point) do they "Outflow" the AFR's?

What I am getting at is any head that flows 500cfm at .700" lift means nothing to a .600" lift guy, on a street car/cam the mid and low lift numbers are what matters the most! What you are being sold on is flow numbers, but when you say the numbers are similar, you are not really telling the whole story, if you are saying they have similar numbers but THAT head is 12 cc's smaller.....now your on to something. If a head is smaller flowing the same (Or slightly more) air, then you will ALWAYS make more horsepower and torque from idle-redline (Wherever that may be) and that is pure fact.

Just some more food for thought, Jason

Badboss351 · Mar 12, 2005

We can sit here and go back and forth all day long. But, the truth of the matter is, you will get mixed opinons, and they are so close, that it can go either way. Don't get to caught up in cc's of a port, as they don't always tell the whole story. If you really want to determine the best head, then you need to know the minimual cross sectional area, flow #'s from .050-.800", and the mapping of the port with a velocity probe. Every point made is a fair point, towards the head that, that person likes. So, the best advice I can give, is to find a company you like/trust, and tell them what you want, and see what they recommend.

n8s_stang · Mar 12, 2005

I would agree with the idea of buying the Vic Jrs (they'll make 400 RWHP no problem out of the box) and then if you want to upgrade it all later, you have that option.

Just for comparison if you want to put numbers into the equation, my Jr's have a 220cc port, and still use a 2.05 valve. They flow within 5 cfm of an AFR 225 from .300 - .400", then pass them at .500" and beat them by 10 cfm at 700". Compared to a 205 it is a little bit of a mismatch with my port being much bigger (but keep in mind they still use a 2.05 valve vs. the 205's 2.08 valve, and my ports are only 10cc larger than a stock Vic Jr head) but they outflow them from 3 - 15 cfm from .300" lift and up. These are heads that cost me the same as a 225 but came with MUCH better valvetrain components. The 225 flows better than my head on the exhaust side.. but my heads have not much work on the exhaust... The Vic Jr actually has an excellent exhaust port. This is NOT to say they are better than this and better than that, I just put this up for comparative reasons. My good buddy has gone 9.0's @ 155 with some squeeze on a completely stock set of 225's, so there is no doubt that AFR knows what they are doing as well.

67mike · Mar 12, 2005

Jason@AFR said:
Ok, to straighten a few points....flow is what sells, therefore a BIG sexy number is what you see out there, those of you saying "You could always port the (Insert name here)" instead of buying an AFR do have a point, but here are some questions on those "Ported" heads you are boasting, What CC are they finished? At what point (lift point) do they "Outflow" the AFR's?

What I am getting at is any head that flows 500cfm at .700" lift means nothing to a .600" lift guy, on a street car/cam the mid and low lift numbers are what matters the most! What you are being sold on is flow numbers, but when you say the numbers are similar, you are not really telling the whole story, if you are saying they have similar numbers but THAT head is 12 cc's smaller.....now your on to something. If a head is smaller flowing the same (Or slightly more) air, then you will ALWAYS make more horsepower and torque from idle-redline (Wherever that may be) and that is pure fact.

Just some more food for thought, Jason

Jason:

I heard that AFR doesn't use helicoils in the heads? Is this true? And if so....why not?

blackcobra46 · Mar 12, 2005

i got 408 with 12.5 to 1 and got victor jrs 205/160 ...but i think i could have went bigger ..

YSIGONZO · Mar 12, 2005

Why do you want helicoils? There are a lot of aluminum components out there without them.

You shouldnt have problems if you use common sense, and dont overtorque or crossthread anything.

When people strip things out, it is usually "user error" or just someone cranking the hell out of fasteners, way beyond where they should be torqued.

But if I remember right, they will helicoil as an option. For all the "Strongest Man" competitors out there....

LOL

67mike · Mar 12, 2005

YSIGONZO said:
Why do you want helicoils? There are a lot of aluminum components out there without them.

You shouldnt have problems if you use common sense, and dont overtorque or crossthread anything.

When people strip things out, it is usually "user error" or just someone cranking the hell out of fasteners, way beyond where they should be torqued.

But if I remember right, they will helicoil as an option. For all the "Strongest Man" competitors out there....

LOL

Well..........for $1700.00 for a set of sbf heads......they should atleast HAVE helicoils.

In my opinion, they should come with the Naked Swedish Female Mechanic squad to install them and lube everything up!

YSIGONZO · Mar 12, 2005

67mike · Mar 12, 2005

Well.....

Aluminum isn't exactly tolerant to over torqueing, it also deforms easily, it also has a nasty habit of oxidizing when in presence of dissimilar material, bla, bla bla,,,,,,,

It is an insurance policy for stupid people like me.

Victor Juniors or save up for Air Flow Research 205cc

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