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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am trying to find others who have purchased and installed the Ford Racing Coyote crate engine and Ford Racing engine controls pack specifically for this crate engine.

I want to start a discussion on the stalling issue (dashpot missing? no vss input?) and other odd behavior. This stalling issue has been experienced by 2 others i know of and one was mentioned in a magazine article.

I have another thread on the actual swap (Has no one installed a 5.0 Ti-VCT in a SN95?) and all the issues along the way but now that it is up and running I want to get feedback on the engine management system and tuning. Thanks.
 

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I have my control pack installed along with all of the wiring and fuel routing. Waiting on my K-member and Florida 5.0 cluster before buying the motor.

What is the stall issue? First I have heard of this... I am doing this swap for HP, MPG, and smooth sailing.... If it is not all smooth sailing after I am done I will be pissed!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have my control pack installed along with all of the wiring and fuel routing. Waiting on my K-member and Florida 5.0 cluster before buying the motor.

What is the stall issue? First I have heard of this... I am doing this swap for HP, MPG, and smooth sailing.... If it is not all smooth sailing after I am done I will be pissed!
There have been at least 4 instances of the stalling that i know of right now. I had it and so did a car that was featured in 5.0 Mustang and Super Fords for the swap. Also Golddust who has posted about it on this site - he is pissed (Im just saying - his thread title says it all) and having trouble with more than just stalling, and another video that shows one that was on horsepowertv on speed. In that video you see the car stall.

Anyway, I can speak best about my case. It is now fixed thanks to a tune by Monty from JMS Chip. i do not know what was done but supposedly it was Chris Johnson who first worked the issue on the 5.0 Mustang and Super Fords car, which got a new PCM because of other issues. But that car, even with the new PCM, had a remaining stalling issue. IThe best I can tell from what others have pointed out, t seems there is no vehicle speed input for the PCM - so how it gets vss to work with the dashpot is a mystery and I know very little about this kind of thing but that is all i know.

Again, it is fixed by a proprietary tune which makes it difficult to let any other tuner work it on a dyno. Without the fix the car will stall and the fix is locked inside the tune. What the fix was is unknown by me. Luckily the fix is coming from a good source so I guess this is not that huge of a deal.

Ford Racing says they never heard of this and my problem is probably the fact I am not using that factory airbox that comes with the kit. Of course you need a tune for air intake changes but I was even told the others put the stock box on their cars and it made no difference.

I like to know how a different zip tube can make a car stall only when you go WOT and then come to a stop - car shuts off as if there is no dashpot function.
 

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I wasnt going to use a CIA at first. I am going to get everything working and over next winter I will do some basic bolt-ons like the Fox CAI kit, and TB.

I am not to far from Anderson Ford Motorsport, which really knows their stuff and performs dyno tuning. I was going to go there after I did the bolt-ons but if I have any stalling I will go there right off. Hopefully I have all smooth sailing *
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I wasnt going to use a CIA at first. I am going to get everything working and over next winter I will do some basic bolt-ons like the Fox CAI kit, and TB.

I am not to far from Anderson Ford Motorsport, which really knows their stuff and performs dyno tuning. I was going to go there after I did the bolt-ons but if I have any stalling I will go there right off. Hopefully I have all smooth sailing *
It is not a huge deal but I am curious why Ford Racing acts like their airbox is what is needed. Ha, they even said you should have stock headers on there. What a joke. Sure backpressure comes into play with AF I guess. But come on. I am sure bad tune can cause stalling along with a bunch of other stuff but not on a new engine and not when it is obvious there is no VSS reading in the data logging. There was no hookup for it in the engine controls pack as well. So, I guess they are doing dashpot regardless if you are sitting there revving the engine or driving. It doesnt seem that way completely but what else would they do wihtout VSS. Maybe load is taken into consideration for determining how to lower the rpms. Something seemed amiss according to others. I am by no means an expert.

Regardless the engine would stall only when you drove it hard so something was up and my tuner could not deal with it nor could others. It took someone with more than average experience to spot what the deal was. That sucks.

Maybe others assumptions are misleading this whole thing - who knows. I can just point out how many seemed to have this issue and it seemed to not be the norm when dealing with tuning.

That being said - the engine runs strong and I think my remaining issues is just fine tuning the fuel pressure or AF and figuring out why, with my AC on, it seems to stutter or fall on its face for a second on take off. With the AC off it is fine and very strong.

You get limited data logging, or so it seems with what I am using - obd-2.com software. It is just like the 2011 mustang gt, it is TRICAN and but the only data points I see are MAF, LOAD, SHORTFTs, LONGFTs, RPMs, SPKADV, IAT, ECT and that is about it. Hmm.
 

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I tuned the '01 Bullitt featured in this months (November) 5.0 and Super Fords magazine.

We experienced a stalling issue with that car, and the short story is, proper calibration fixed it. No black magic, just proper calibration.

The long story is, when we first put that car together, SCT didn't have tools available for the FRPP control pack. So, when we contacted Ford Racing about the issue, they informed us there was an updated calibration, and we needed to return the PCM for the upgrade. After doing this, we still had the problem. The ultimate fix was realized after SCT released support for this PCM. Once I got my eyes on it, I concluded that the MAF calibration was ultimately the cause.

People are going to find that it is going to take 'above average' experience to properly deal with the latest generation of Ford engine controls. This is not specific to just the FRPP kit, but everything 2011+. I would recommend to anyone with one of these systems to take it to a specialist, not just some shop that builds cars, motors, oh and tunes too.

Brian
EFI-Unlimited
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I tuned the '01 Bullitt featured in this months (November) 5.0 and Super Fords magazine.

We experienced a stalling issue with that car, and the short story is, proper calibration fixed it. No black magic, just proper calibration.

The long story is, when we first put that car together, SCT didn't have tools available for the FRPP control pack. So, when we contacted Ford Racing about the issue, they informed us there was an updated calibration, and we needed to return the PCM for the upgrade. After doing this, we still had the problem. The ultimate fix was realized after SCT released support for this PCM. Once I got my eyes on it, I concluded that the MAF calibration was ultimately the cause.

People are going to find that it is going to take 'above average' experience to properly deal with the latest generation of Ford engine controls. This is not specific to just the FRPP kit, but everything 2011+. I would recommend to anyone with one of these systems to take it to a specialist, not just some shop that builds cars, motors, oh and tunes too.

Brian
EFI-Unlimited
Ok. No Black Magic but still - it seems there is a huge learning curve with this particular FRPP strategy. Not everyone has the support of a magazine to get FRPP's attention.

So what was the deal that they needed to send you a new PCM for? Was this so tuners can tune it or something completely different?

What fuel pressure did you use if you do not mind stating it here? 40? 45? 55?

So where is a list of specialists? I just dont get how you can tell who knows what. Are you saying those with years of dyno tuning cannot deal with this new strategy? I mean - I understand what you are pointing out, they will need to spend hours of working on one of these new cars or these swap cars, to get to understand what is going on. But don't you think this FRPP strategy is little different than even the 2011 mustang gt setup?

I still think FRPP has not been so forthcoming with information for someone who is reaching out that has bought this crate engine and PCM. "Ford Racing has taken the complexity and mystery out of wiring a late model 5.0L 4V engine, with their "Coyote" 5.0L 4V Crate Engine Control Pack"

Yeah except for that VSS that is missing. LOL.

They could have simply said - here are a few specialist that we know have worked on these if you want to reach out to them and see if they can help you. Oh yeah the system doesnt get VSS but instead we do this XXXX so you have to ensure whoever does the tuning this is what they have to deal with.

I understand I just might be asking too much and something new might just be left to the specialists at first. But that is my take on it - a little more support with information to guide. No wonder no one wanted to take this on at first.
 

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Actually, the Ford Crate motor calibrations are pretty sweet in a lot of ways.
They actually have less functions active than 2011+ factory cars and are therefore easier to dial in.
However, there are template issues with some of the SCT base files. Some Cals simply have parameters missing in the template. It doesn't mean it's not there, you just can't see it. There is a way around this problem if you can find the values needed in another cal. And as stated above, the crate motor apps don't *need* a lot of the junk that's in the factory cars, so it's turned off....at which point it may not be necessary to even have the option to modify it in the SCT template.

As far as who to go to... That's always been the question.
Some tuners specialize in Fox's, others in ETC GT500's, etc. If you want to know who to go to for a particular setup, call SCT tech. They will point you in the right direction.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I tuned the '01 Bullitt featured in this months (November) 5.0 and Super Fords magazine.

We experienced a stalling issue with that car, and the short story is, proper calibration fixed it. No black magic, just proper calibration.

The long story is, when we first put that car together, SCT didn't have tools available for the FRPP control pack. So, when we contacted Ford Racing about the issue, they informed us there was an updated calibration, and we needed to return the PCM for the upgrade. After doing this, we still had the problem. The ultimate fix was realized after SCT released support for this PCM. Once I got my eyes on it, I concluded that the MAF calibration was ultimately the cause.

People are going to find that it is going to take 'above average' experience to properly deal with the latest generation of Ford engine controls. This is not specific to just the FRPP kit, but everything 2011+. I would recommend to anyone with one of these systems to take it to a specialist, not just some shop that builds cars, motors, oh and tunes too.

Brian
EFI-Unlimited

I am curious, why is the guy who originally setup this calibration for FRP, going to setup a circuit for OSS or VSS input to deal with the stalling issues? I mean if it is just calibration you would think this is a complete waste of time. Or was it more than calibration and some kind of workaround that you guys employed to deal with this definciency? Seems the real issue was the lack of vehicle speed input.

Also, in the guide it says dont put the MAF sensor to far from TB, I think they said further than 24 inches. The stock airbox they made for the kit has the sensor about as far away from the TB as one can put it. That is odd given their own instructions.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, just really trying to fully understand all that I can about this coyote engine control pack and the stalling issue. You stated you saw what the ford engineer did here and determined it was a MAF calibration issue, which did make sense, but why is that such a big learning curve for those who have been dealing with MAF systems for a long time? I am calling that into question I guess - but only because of this latest development.
 

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Has anyone installed the crate motor plus control pack exactly as specified (with all the recommended equipment and had it work properly?
Erich
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Has anyone installed the crate motor plus control pack exactly as specified (with all the recommended equipment and had it work properly?
Erich
Good question. I wish I knew. I would be suprised if someone did install that stock airbox when doing this swap. The guide has instructions on how to ensure a custom tube is setup correctly physically.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have a Boss 302 Crate engine and the FRPP Controls Pack. I was called by FRPP the other day and sent an updated instruction manual and told to set the [email protected] Thewy also said the Boss engine would obvioulsy need a custom tune which I had planned on already.
Are you driving it already or you waiting to install this engine?

They also added a new photo to the installation guide to show where a wire hooked up in their custom junction box. I think it was the fan wire. Not sure but it was a wire with an eyelet on it if I am not mistaken.
 

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For those of you guys who would be interested we are doing complete packages now with really good pricing. I have several customers who are working on builds now.

We offer kits with Automatics or a Stick and have everything you need from the front drive accessory kits to the tail shaft of the trans!

Just something I started working on for some of my customers, that takes all the guess work out of what you need.

Coyote 5.0L Engine and Transmisison Packages




This is one of the current projects underway by TAJ Motorsports



 

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I have done the swap using the airbox that ford provided in the kit, and I also have the stalling issue at times. Other than that I havent really had any issues. except that the alternator charges at nearly 16 volts. I blew up an optima red top after driving for 6 hrs straight from Memphis TN to Jacksonville NC. I was about halfway when it happened, but even after having blown up it still got me to a parts store where I got a new one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I have done the swap using the airbox that ford provided in the kit, and I also have the stalling issue at times. Other than that I havent really had any issues. except that the alternator charges at nearly 16 volts. I blew up an optima red top after driving for 6 hrs straight from Memphis TN to Jacksonville NC. I was about halfway when it happened, but even after having blown up it still got me to a parts store where I got a new one.
Interesting. Yeah everyone is having this stalling issue. I am a little disappointed that they acted like no one else was having the issue. Now they may have a fix - a diagram showing what pin to attach VSS/OSS input wire to. You need to have a box that does the translation depending on what tranny you have.

What is the deal with the alternator charging at 16 volts? That is not normal is it? Is that due to a problem in the wiring of it?
 
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