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As said above.
  • MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor will see changes in baro, automatically adjusting for changes in altitude.
  • MAT - Manifold Air Temperature sensor compensates for air density changes with temperature.
  • AFR - Air/Fuel Ratio compensates for any variations in desired air/fuel ratio in real time via a wideband O2 sensor.
 

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So I need some input from guys. I'm leaning towards the Pro M but the under the advice from multiple tuners and a tuner friend, they recommend the Holley Terminator.

How would speed density from the holley play with the multiple changing altitudes. I live literally at sea level but will be taking the truck up into the mountains. Wouldn't speed density potentially need some adjustments that MAF would do automatically?
with the closed loop fueling turned on it’s a moot point regardless if you’re running a maf or sd. The Holley will adjust fueling, as will the pro m, or any other ecu that has closed loop fueling.
 

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1995 Mustang GT - Road Course/AutoX
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So I need some input from guys. I'm leaning towards the Pro M but the under the advice from multiple tuners and a tuner friend, they recommend the Holley Terminator.

How would speed density from the holley play with the multiple changing altitudes. I live literally at sea level but will be taking the truck up into the mountains. Wouldn't speed density potentially need some adjustments that MAF would do automatically?
It should work fine. The Sniper uses the MAP sensor as a piece of the whole puzzle. It self-tunes based on the AFR from O2 sensor readings. Target AFR doesn't change with altitude. The factor that might change is where the Target AFRs come from as compared to the load-based table (TPS controls acceleration enrichment based on several different tables, so what we're talking about here is just steady state throttle). Still, if you take the time to have a base fuel map and target AFRs with good resolution on the kPa scale and a smooth transition around the areas the engine typically operates at your altitude, without any crazy peaks and valleys, you shouldn't have any trouble.

Makes no difference, speed density will compensate via AFR , manifold pressure etc. All ecu’s use the same basic principles (AFR, MAP, IAT etc). MAF adds additional input via an estimate of volumetric air flow or as ProM refers to load. ProM major emphasis is based on volumetric air flow, MAP is manifold pressure. Both rely on lambda aka O2 sensors for real-time adjustment.
Mostly agree here. There's one thing I'm not sure I agree on. Yes, when set to closed loop, these non-MAP systems rely on the O2 sensors for adjustments on the fly...but where does the system look to figure out what AFR it's supposed to be shooting for?

Here:
Colorfulness Rectangle Slope Font Line


And there's a MAP reading on the left side over there. The system is only smart enough to adjust fuel to hit what you tell it to hit...at a given load (MAP reading). If that altitude and operating kPa changes, not just based on the load, but factoring in the lower air density, and your graph looks like the one above, you may encounter issues.

Say your engine at WOT was operating off that 76 kPa row (restricted engine much? you get the idea). Target AFR is 12.5, plenty safe for WOT operation. But then you drive up a mountain in Colorado. At that altitude, you're now operating off of the 67 kPa line. Now you're running at 14:1 AFR! Not ideal for WOT operation. The engine doesn't magically know that it needs to bump the AFR to 12.5 with the table above. All it knows is, "Hey, MAP sensor says we're at 67 kPa...at that MAP reading, my Target AFR is 14:1 for any RPM above 3000...we good!"

Something like this looks a little better (as far as the scaling of everything, not whether any of those Targets are necessarily right...I just googled some examples):

Colorfulness Rectangle Font Slope Screenshot


I'm not smart enough to say how much the altitude actually changes the kPa reading, but there is certainly some amount. If you're spending a lot of time at that high of an altitude, it might make sense to tune for both MAP areas or at least ensure that they're in the ballpark.

All of that said, a good tuner should be smoothing out these sorts of things, so you probably have nothing to worry about like I said above. I just don't think it's a sure thing to say "no, you'll encounter no issues because the computer will adjust based on AFR"...when the Target AFR is based on MAP values...which are altered to some degree by the air density/altitude, right?

I'll leave abundant room for being corrected if there's a factor I'm missing here. Feel free to point me straight, I'm no expert.
 

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So I need some input from guys. I'm leaning towards the Pro M but the under the advice from multiple tuners and a tuner friend, they recommend the Holley Terminator.

How would speed density from the holley play with the multiple changing altitudes. I live literally at sea level but will be taking the truck up into the mountains. Wouldn't speed density potentially need some adjustments that MAF would do automatically?
I've ran my car as low as 3000ft and as high as 9000ft. No issues with the speed density. (I live in the SLC valley at the bench of the Wasatch Mountains.) I've heard some say they've made an advanced table using the onboard baro sensor for timing/fuel differences. I've never had to.

From what was explained to me is that KPA is KPA regardless of throttle position either all the way open or half way. The engine is going to use/need same fuel at 75kpa at 1/2 throttle or full throttle. I believe it based on what I've seen during my canyon shenanigans.
 

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Ls swapped my foxbody with the termX have had no issues with the harness or ecu.i have had to buy extras small harnesses to hook up the cooling fans,can bus xtension,can to usb for tuning for example. I got the dash too with GPS speedo it works great as well. The car starts and runs everytime I turn the key.

Ok there was one issue the tuner corrected which seems like a common complaint. Taking off in first gear the engine would bog rich like a poorly tuned carb, then take off. After tuning its barely noticed.
 

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I would think the Pro M would not be the best choice since this is going in a Bronco. Once you buy all the extras for the Terminator X you are in fox body Pro M price range but the custom Pro M systems are REALLY expensive.
 

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I would think the Pro M would not be the best choice since this is going in a Bronco. Once you buy all the extras for the Terminator X you are in fox body Pro M price range but the custom Pro M systems are REALLY expensive.
How much extra stuff do you have to buy with a term x?
 

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'87 20th Anniversary Cougar7.0 427W
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The above is so much different than what I pieced mine together for:
Font Parallel Pattern Number Rectangle


Even better, it's a Holley HP setup though granted the HP was used, the rest were new parts.
 
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Those sensors are all available at local part stores for half the price. The MSD coil is an absolute waste. Go get the $30 lifetime warranty one from part store. It’s just as good.

Why would you buy the harness when one is included in the TermX kit? The sensors are included in the kit too.
 

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The above is so much different than what I pieced mine together for:
View attachment 1090831

Even better, it's a Holley HP setup though granted the HP was used, the rest were new parts.
I think most want the box solution so comparing eBay shopping vs box delivered isn’t Apple to Apple.

The ProM also provides a harness for simplifying the wideband install, it has a ready made 10 gauge circuit for your cooling fan, connects all your factory connectors , etc.

I think the discussion is more nuanced that just tuning.

The ProM also has the meth, nitrous, 2 step, extra 12V outputs already wired in to the system.

The MAF is often something people already have. I owned my proM maf long before I bought the system.

Things to consider with a stand alone is you don’t need a separate meth controller.

The proM harness quality is top notch.

I agonized over the choice. Both can do what you want but the harness quality and all the features of ProM while still having factory style harness and connectors is why I went with it.

The cost of the tune is subjective as well. You dont have to pay $150 for the tune it’s an option. Holley also doesn’t give you a tune either.

Is the ProM more expensive? Yes. But you get a brand new, complete, EFI MAF harness with OEM quality connectors.

Most people will be biased and tell people to use the system they chose.

The hedge for me was the simplicity of swapping in the new harness, the built in fan circuit, and built in meth control.

I’ve added the options of the fuel pressure sensor, traction control, and the meth nozzle sensors which measure the flow.
 

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The best IMO is actually the HP or Dominator boxes from Holley. But they are more expensive than the Terminator.

I have never used the Pro-M but it sounds great, especially with the idea of keeping the mass air. I have always had really good luck with any Pro-M product and I bought my first meter from them in the mid 1990s. I can see the appeal of not having to tune so heavily for cars that don't need it. I would have loved to have had a system like that twenty years ago.

I am about to put a Holley Dominator setup on a second car I own. I already have an HP setup on a car. So this will be my third Holley system. My car with the HP is a garage queen, the car with the first Dominator box is a drag race only car and the newest car is 2005 GT. I like the Holley system because you can do anything with it.

If I want to make an advanced table to pull 8 degrees of timing based on the AFR at wide open throttle, I can do that. If I want to turn a dash light on anytime the ethanol content of the fuel is under 60%, I can do that. Want to run 16 injectors? 24 injectors? It can do it. Want to turn on a second set of injectors only at wide open throttle and spray methanol? It can do it. That functionality is something that doesn't exist in a lot of other systems. Take note, I have no idea if you can do any of this with a Pro-M, as I am completely ignorant of its capabilities. I do know that the Fueltech systems can do many of these things at a bit lower cost. I also realize it is probably overkill for many applications so it really comes down to how much you need the Star Trek level of functionality. The HP box that is on my garage queen car is overkill but at the time I installed it, the Terminator system did not yet exist.
 

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All depends on your wallet and experience.

There is more than a few tooners on here that push Holley because they make a ton of money off their systems. tooning and selling and retooning.

I don't know a ******* thing about tooning. put down 645rwhp in my driveway without having to know anything about tooning. 408 10:1 Vortech V3SI. box stock pro m tables, oem drivability. Just read, understand, follow the directions to the letter.

pro m was my best fit because it was a direct replacement harness for my old 86 mustang. im installing the universal one right now in a 90 Lincoln lsc and it fits pretty good. universal....some fab to be expected. same goes for any other system.

buy once cry once.

or get Holley whatever and install. lots of support for either system. enjoy.
 

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I think most want the box solution so comparing eBay shopping vs box delivered isn’t Apple to Apple.

The ProM also provides a harness for simplifying the wideband install, it has a ready made 10 gauge circuit for your cooling fan, connects all your factory connectors , etc.

I think the discussion is more nuanced that just tuning.

The ProM also has the meth, nitrous, 2 step, extra 12V outputs already wired in to the system.

The MAF is often something people already have. I owned my proM maf long before I bought the system.

Things to consider with a stand alone is you don’t need a separate meth controller.

The proM harness quality is top notch.

I agonized over the choice. Both can do what you want but the harness quality and all the features of ProM while still having factory style harness and connectors is why I went with it.

The cost of the tune is subjective as well. You dont have to pay $150 for the tune it’s an option. Holley also doesn’t give you a tune either.

Is the ProM more expensive? Yes. But you get a brand new, complete, EFI MAF harness with OEM quality connectors.

Most people will be biased and tell people to use the system they chose.

The hedge for me was the simplicity of swapping in the new harness, the built in fan circuit, and built in meth control.

I’ve added the options of the fuel pressure sensor, traction control, and the meth nozzle sensors which measure the flow.
I think it's instructive to compare a system that has a massive user base and can be pieced together via various online resources to a "complete" system (which isn't a "plug-in" to a non-Mustang Fox body such as my Cougar anyway.) The Pro-M comparison was bound to ruffle some feathers, but I included it anyway. I'm the other type of car person who gets satisfaction in doing it themselves; the spreadsheet is even more comprehensive as it includes every connector, adapter, cable and sensor to build a system from scratch assuming one can obtain the ECU somewhere.

As noted in the post above, the customization potential is about infinite with the Holley setups. I've recently tapped in a custom hall-effect VSS sensor into my TKO output shaft - it works perfectly. Same with custom tables to deal with the ins and outs of a relatively large cam on the street. I'll be putting in a knock sensor soon - I expect that'll be a bear to tune, but I enjoy problem solving - it's what I do.

Ugh, and now the guy who uses the word "tooner" to show his puerile ignorance is posting and ruining another thread. Oh, well, I already typed this, might as well post it now :rolleyes:
 

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TermX all retail prices for me was $1200 kit, 80$ 3 bar map sensor (optional if not NA) $400 dual sync distributor. And I was done, already had a 6 series MSD box.

If you keep the existing distributor you can easily just get the kit with the TFI adaptor.

KJB, you're confusing at times. You say you know nothing, you've said it's BS to use a laptop, yet you've made support posts to other pro-m users telling them how to make changes in their tunes via laptop. Which is it man... did you just plug in everything and it worked perfect or did you actually gasp make changes. I know you're trying to justify your superior choice but get real man. Those of us that have been around the block ain't buying it. Being real will help provide better advice for everyone regardless which side of the fence they fall.
 
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