Ford Mustang Forums banner

1 - 20 of 54 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am new to this forum and have big aspirations with a Cleveland. I am running a stroked 302 and want to go 9s with a Cleveland. I really like the strength of the Cleveland block and internals. I would like to get some specifics from the pros on this board on which way to go. Here is what I would like to do....

Either 358 or 408. 1/2 filled block with some kind of girdle. Stock rods with ARP bolts. Nice, light pistons. 2.1 rod journal. And.....here is where the 500 rwhp comes in......Unported Blue Thunder heads with good SS valves and nice valve job with 2.08 or 2.12. Big, ported intake, 2" Kooks headers w/merge collectors, 5 spd P/S TKO with the usual spool and 4.56 gears with 10"slicks

I am confident that with a nice big solid roller(270s @.050") installed with a proper LSA would bring the power to that power, especially with the BTs. I have heard very good things about the heads. With flow #s of 293 @.400 and [email protected] and [email protected] on a 220cc intake port, I am sure I can get there. I need to know I few things before I get started.

Whats the best C crank to go with....which year? Should i go with a turned down 400M crank?

Are the cranks forged or cast?

Can you use the stock pistons over 6,500?

Is the 4 bolt main nessesary?

Are the 4 bolt blocks stronger?

Thanks for all the info in advance.

P.S. What is the best low dollar aftermarket manifold?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
347 Posts
why are the valve sizes you listed so small
stock C heads are 2.19
cranks are pretty much all the same from what I have heard
stock pistons are heavy
4 bolt mains are not necessary
4 bolt blocks are probably stronger in the main cap retention but Cs split the bores long before main caps cause problems

I have seen a 351c with raised port modified stock heads run 9.0s in a light car
with huge race heads you are far ahead of the game
add a stroker kit and power will be no problem

curious why you mention stroker and stock rods and stock cranks in the same post?
aftermarket stroker kit from flatlander.com is cheaper then most can redo stock parts
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
michael85 said:
why are the valve sizes you listed so small
stock C heads are 2.19
cranks are pretty much all the same from what I have heard
stock pistons are heavy
4 bolt mains are not necessary
4 bolt blocks are probably stronger in the main cap retention but Cs split the bores long before main caps cause problems

I have seen a 351c with raised port modified stock heads run 9.0s in a light car
with huge race heads you are far ahead of the game
add a stroker kit and power will be no problem

curious why you mention stroker and stock rods and stock cranks in the same post?
aftermarket stroker kit from flatlander.com is cheaper then most can redo stock parts
Micheal,

Thanks for the info. About the stroker, I am not aware of the Flatlander kit, but i'll check it out. I am trying to stay on a budget, but if the kit is good enough, then i'll string for it.

I want to keep the valves small to maintain a high velocity. I am thinking 2.12 or 2.08. I really want to havet the highest velocity heads possible.

Ok, i'll ditch the stock pistons right away and go with some super light weight ones.

Btw, Whats your opinion on a Edel. Torker intake? They look very nice with big runners. Is it comparable to a Holley strip dominator or Victor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
364 Posts
The SKFC3961 kit with 7/16" rod bolts from Flatlander will suffice, $1499+$100 for the larger bolts, with either the Probe or JE pistons for 12:1 or higher comp, stock or slightly cleaned up 70-71 CC 4V heads with Ferrea Competition Plus valves 2.19 Intake 1.76 Exhaust, 5 angle valve job, single groove Ti locks, Ti retainers, milled for studs/guideplates, Holley strip Dom intake, solid flat tappet 260-270* at .050" and .650"+ lift similar to comp's 306S.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
347 Posts
no experience with BT's
if you send me a set I will test the intakes for you though
lowly iron head guys do not get Victor manifolds
for iron heads the strip dom is the king but you will find Torkers everywhere
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Bad88GT said:
The SKFC3961 kit with 7/16" rod bolts from Flatlander will suffice, $1499+$100 for the larger bolts, with either the Probe or JE pistons for 12:1 or higher comp, stock or slightly cleaned up 70-71 CC 4V heads with Ferrea Competition Plus valves 2.19 Intake 1.76 Exhaust, 5 angle valve job, single groove Ti locks, Ti retainers, milled for studs/guideplates, Holley strip Dom intake, solid flat tappet 260-270* at .050" and .650"+ lift similar to comp's 306S.
88GT,

It looks like a good kit. I'd like to stay at 11:1 comp. Are you saying the 70 and 71 year models are best for the 4V head? or 70,71 combustion chamber volume?

I have looked at both the Holley Strip Dom and th Torker and from the outside runners, it seems like the Torker would have high enough flowing/and big enough runners. What makes the Strip Dom. so good?

Can you go with a solid roller as well? Yes, [email protected]" is what i would like.

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
michael85 said:
no experience with BT's
if you send me a set I will test the intakes for you though
lowly iron head guys do not get Victor manifolds
for iron heads the strip dom is the king but you will find Torkers everywhere
The BT flow niumbers are as good as CNC ported yates......except with a smaller runner. The BTs are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They run $2466 at Flatlanderracing and are worth every penny. Look again at the low lift flow numbers on the head....heck, i might not even have to go above a .500" lift cam on this bad boy.

How come the Holley is such a better intake? It seems like the Torker would do a fine job, even on a 7,500rpm motor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
michael85 said:
the rumour is the 70-71 heads are a smaller combustion chamber

with the aluminum fantasy heads you shouldnt need to worry about any of that
<<< LOL!!!! Fantasy head!!! Too funny! I would go with some 4V heads, but since the port volumes are huge and the technology is a little old!! Besides, I am a huge fan of high velocity heads. No head, except the Neal and Yates comes close to the BT. Bennett's race port TFS high port comes close, but those run $4000. I would rather have a head I can get 'as cast' and run fast. As well, I dont want a head that just starts to wake at 4,500 and is very peaky. IMO, with the flow #rs of the BTs, that thing will have a very broad, flat torque curve and that is what I am shooting for.

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
364 Posts
The D0AE(1970) and D1AE(1971) have nominal 61.3-64.3cc chambers, 1971 Boss 351 D1ZE-B had 64.6-67.6cc chambers. Stock 4V CC heads will flow well enough for 600hp all day long. For that kind of power you will have to run 12:1 or more, 11:1 won't do it. Comparing the external appearances of 2 intakes is worthless, it's what's inside that counts(or what's not inside).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,508 Posts
550rwhp should be simple with the Blue Thunder heads, especially if you stroke it.

I would recommend this route.

4" stroke crank.....

6" 2.100 rods (you may have to do some counterweight reducing on the crank)

1.20 compression height pistons (flat top)

Will make a 408C.

Yes, you will need a 4-bolt block, preferably billet caps. If you don't use billet caps, at least install a main girdle.

Half fill it also....

If don't want to stroke the engine, your going to have to get much more radical, so forget the stock parts, other than the crank. Stock crank will be ok, just make sure it gets the 2.100 rod journal size.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,508 Posts
John Butt said:
As well, I dont want a head that just starts to wake at 4,500 and is very peaky.
John
Whether a head is 'peaky' or not is decided by what ci engine its bolted to, or the amount of port work etc... A head thats peaky on one engine might be low on another. A 351C 4brl head is peaky for a 302 ci, but makes peak power at around 6800rpm on a 408 like mine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Raceallday1 said:
Whether a head is 'peaky' or not is decided by what ci engine its bolted to, or the amount of port work etc... A head thats peaky on one engine might be low on another. A 351C 4brl head is peaky for a 302 ci, but makes peak power at around 6800rpm on a 408 like mine.
How broad/flat is your torque curve?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Raceallday1 said:
550rwhp should be simple with the Blue Thunder heads, especially if you stroke it.

I would recommend this route.

4" stroke crank.....

6" 2.100 rods (you may have to do some counterweight reducing on the crank)

1.20 compression height pistons (flat top)

Will make a 408C.

Yes, you will need a 4-bolt block, preferably billet caps. If you don't use billet caps, at least install a main girdle.

Half fill it also....

If don't want to stroke the engine, your going to have to get much more radical, so forget the stock parts, other than the crank. Stock crank will be ok, just make sure it gets the 2.100 rod journal size.
It sounds like i should just get the 408 kit from flatlander!!

Yes, IMO, the Blue Thunder heads are golden. I feel like buying a set to put up in a display case in my house(behind glass of course) to show all the guests at dinner party's and such....because the heads are soo nice!!

Coast High sells them for $3000 complete vs. $2299 for the big block heads...go figure that one out!! It's because they are so nice!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,508 Posts
John Butt said:

Coast High sells them for $3000 complete
:confused:

A friend of mine bought a pair for $1500 brand new bare back when they first came out a couple of years ago. With springs and valves, you shouldn't have more than $2000 in them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,990 Posts
I thought you said you were on a budget. Unless it's a real big budget, aftermarket heads are out of the question especially when your goals are well within reason for a factory 4V head regardless of the cubes. I'm doing something a little different with mine but I will have around 550 rwhp with stock heads with almost no port work and 351 inches with a 6'' rod. My rpm range will be 5000-8000 but only because i just wanted to turn it that high. This power range is definately possible without turning it that high. A friend of mine has a C powered drag car that has close to what you're looking for with stock heads and a little smaller cam than you're talking about. It's 351 in. with a strip dominator. The car has not been gutted and has almost a complete interior and runs low 6.60s 1/8th. I'm hoping for a little better than that with mine. His car is not very peaky or anything like that. Don't be suckered in by all the rumors and bad things you've heard about C heads as most of this comes from people driving boss 302s on the street. The 4V C heads on a 351 are not at all like that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,990 Posts
BTW don't buy kooks headers for this application. They are a terrible fit to say the least. pm Raceallday1 and ask him he likes his.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
All Cleveland said:
I thought you said you were on a budget. Unless it's a real big budget, aftermarket heads are out of the question especially when your goals are well within reason for a factory 4V head regardless of the cubes. I'm doing something a little different with mine but I will have around 550 rwhp with stock heads with almost no port work and 351 inches with a 6'' rod. My rpm range will be 5000-8000 but only because i just wanted to turn it that high. This power range is definately possible without turning it that high. A friend of mine has a C powered drag car that has close to what you're looking for with stock heads and a little smaller cam than you're talking about. It's 351 in. with a strip dominator. The car has not been gutted and has almost a complete interior and runs low 6.60s 1/8th. I'm hoping for a little better than that with mine. His car is not very peaky or anything like that. Don't be suckered in by all the rumors and bad things you've heard about C heads as most of this comes from people driving boss 302s on the street. The 4V C heads on a 351 are not at all like that.
I'll definately take a look into the 4V heads before I make a final decision. Do you have flow #s for 4V heads/unported? I think I would rather stay unported as I dont want huge runners to kill all the velocity.

The BTs are just incredible. I am temped to spend extra money on the heads (Flatlander sells them for $2466 complete) instead of putting $800 into a set of 4V....just because the BTs flow so well. The low lift #s at .300 are like 236 and @ .400" are 293.....you cant beat that with any heads out there except CNC ported Yates and Neals......period!

IMO, definately worth $2500.

But......tell me the flow numbers on the 4Vs and try to change my mind!! :)

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Raceallday1 said:
:confused:

A friend of mine bought a pair for $1500 brand new bare back when they first came out a couple of years ago. With springs and valves, you shouldn't have more than $2000 in them.
Your correct....Coast High just marks them up $1000 becuase they are so popular. There BB BTs go for $2299 complete...and I saw an add for Coast High about two years ago that had the BT BB heads complete for $2099......

Go figure!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
347 Posts
flow numbers with "huge runners" are easy to make look big
rather then look at that number you should be looking at the power produced in your desired rpm range
I think spending your $2500 on a race block would be money better spent
stock heads have the potential to reach hp levels that can split the bores out of the stock block
 
1 - 20 of 54 Posts
Top