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Discussion Starter #1
I was planning on getting a set of AFR 165's for my rebuild project. For now, ill be using the stock cam and I wanted to know if AFR's would be a waste of time and money. Or would trick flow head be a better choice? The car will remain N/A for now and my future plans will be to install a Kenne Bell blower.

Ive heard that teh AFR heads have aot of potential to them and the stock cam isnt going to show what they can do. On the other hand, there TFS heads and im not really all the familiar with them.

I had done quit a bit of research on AFR heads and decided that I would get them, but once I started thining about it, are they really worth the $1275?
 

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I have no real experience in this area, but the AFR's will work MUCH better with the stock cam then the TFS.

The TFS have much larger ports (read: less velocity) and get flow numbers close to the AFRs. The AFR's have smaller better designed intake ports that flow a lot of air for there size, excelent velocity and flow.


someone stomp me if you think the above is wrong.
 

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Both would show about the same dyno #'s.
 

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It depends which model TFS head you're talking about. AFR 165's aren't a bad choice, but if you do get a blower on the engine, and you passed on the less expensive TFS Twisted Wedge, you'll wanna kick yourself for it. In the end, the TFS will cost about the same as the AFR's, if you also swap pushrods and rockers, but they'll easily outperform the 165's and are only slightly outperformed by the 185's(for comparison).

I've had both and can say the overall difference is almost completely unnoticeable on the dyno or the track. We're talking about 3-5hp more with 185's than TW's.

You've said you're keeping the stock camshaft, but what about the intake and it's supporting cast? That isn't going to be stock too, is it? I'm just wondering because I'd really be interested in seeing the difference in power with ONLY a head & rocker swap, vs. factory stock, but I don't think I'd do it myself... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
To be completely honest with you.... yes. The intake (upper and lower) will remain the factory peices for now. My budget is tight, and all I have now is just enough for a complete shortblock rebuild and a ser of nice heads (so I want have to worry about them later)

Once I get some more $$$ in my "car fund" ill probably bolt on a Cobra intake.

Alot of people have questioned as to why I want to keep the stock cam. I guess my thinking is that it will give the best economy (mpg) and best idle and I want have to get a higher stall converter.

The only other cam I was looking at was the baby crower.
 

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Be sure to post the results with future mods. I think you're making a good choice in getting heads now, because they(usually with a cam) will make the biggest difference in overall power. Other decent cams you might want to look into are what most people know as the "Steeda19" or the small TFS cam. With that cam (19), TFS Twisted Wedge heads, Edelbrock Performer 5.0 intake, 70mm tb and spacer, 75mm MAM, 3.73 gears, AOD, and various other (smaller) upgrades, like ignition parts, etc., I remember getting 21mpg on the hwy with my LX hatchback. Not the most potent combo, but it ran 12.40-12.70's without slicks and I was happywith that mileage.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thats pretty good considering some of the results ive seen from other combos.

My goal is to have a mid 12 sec car with AC, heater, and still knock down over 20mpg on the highway.

I doubt ill be able to hit 12's with a rebuilt block, heads, stock cam and stock intake. Maybe when the KB goes on.

I already know im going to have to do this thing peice by peice, so thats why im doing the block, heads (and maybe cam) right now, cause I dont want to be worried with it later.

As for results, the shop where I think ill have it done at also has a chassis dyno, so I may just get them to put it on there and tune the air and fuel as well as give me some dyno number, but then again, the dyno results will be messed up because im running a non lockup converter and I was told that its going to give a higher torque reading and a lower HP reading. I dont think they have an engine dyno.
 

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I know this is a little off subject, but do you guys think that taking a cartridge roll to my TW heads would help the power/velocity any? Since it's not really removing any material do you think this would only be beneficial? What about the combustion chambers as well?

Thanks for any input-
 

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Diesel Boy said:
I know this is a little off subject, but do you guys think that taking a cartridge roll to my TW heads would help the power/velocity any? Since it's not really removing any material do you think this would only be beneficial? What about the combustion chambers as well?

Thanks for any input-
Idunno.. I'd call Summit Racing and ask for the TFS department tech. and see what they'll say. I'd call Summit instead of TFS directly, because Summit's # is free!! :)
 

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Stock cam, 1.7 rockers, ported Cobra intake, TW heads, 19lber's= 12.51 at 109.45mph, 1.77 60 ft.

:D

edit- 24mpg w/ A/C on, 26mpg A/C off. Hwy cruise, 5th gear, 80mph.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
FasterDamnit! said:
Stock cam, 1.7 rockers, ported Cobra intake, TW heads, 19lber's= 12.51 at 109.45mph, 1.77 60 ft.

:D

edit- 24mpg w/ A/C on, 26mpg A/C off. Hwy cruise, 5th gear, 80mph.

Wow! thats pretty good, but the again, its a 5-speed and mines an AOD and I know its going to be alittle tougher to get those times with an AOD, but at least ive got something to shoot for.
 

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Since you are going to be adding a blower, I would go with the TFS heads. I think for forced induction applications they are much better and can be hogged out to go as fast as you want and still be smog legal.

If staying NA go with the AFRs.


I am always amazed at the high numbers those TW heads make in blower applications.
 

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FasterDamnit! said:
Stock cam, 1.7 rockers, ported Cobra intake, TW heads, 19lber's= 12.51 at 109.45mph, 1.77 60 ft.

:D

edit- 24mpg w/ A/C on, 26mpg A/C off. Hwy cruise, 5th gear, 80mph.
Not bad but my edelbrock headed w/ stock cam ran [email protected] Hell with AFR 165 and a small cam it would have gone 11.'[email protected] easy.

I then switch to a strim, and made 425rwhp on [email protected] The went with a Holley intake,AFR185,AFM b2 cam and made 522rwhp on pump [email protected] running out of fuel.

Mike
 

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FasterDamnit! said:
Stock cam, 1.7 rockers, ported Cobra intake, TW heads, 19lber's= 12.51 at 109.45mph, 1.77 60 ft.

:D

edit- 24mpg w/ A/C on, 26mpg A/C off. Hwy cruise, 5th gear, 80mph.

Hey, this CYBER RACING HERE. WE WANT INTERNET THEORY AND AFR INFORMERICALS, PLEASE DON'T POST REAL LIFE DATA THAT FLYS AGAINT THE FACE OF CYBER RACERS AND AFR INFOMERCIALS ;)






I can vouch for fasterdamnit's car for being a full weight, no tricks, no nothing honest to goodness street driven 5.O. Only thing it would need to drive from California to New York would be gasoline. Okay, maybe a quart or three of oil as well ;)
 

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I have allways loved these AFR vs TFS posts. LOL
They almost allways recieve the nod for AFRs, I own TFS TW and have owned several different sets of heads as well. I like the TW head but that is just personal preference on my part and not a set in stone this is the head to have statement. As far as I am concerned any aftermarket head is leaps and bounds ahead of the stock units, Period end of story! You cant in my opinion go wrong with either one. What I like about the TFS heads is the price of the heads are say a minimum 200 less than the AFRs so there is a set of rockers and heads for the price of the AFRs alone. Another issue that some people love to argue is that you can get pedestal mount AFRs and reuse your stock rockers, Why would you do that? The way I see it is the factory stamped steel rockers are just that, Stamped thus not real accurate in the ratio dept if ya know what I mean(also this is not a real good set up for performance, It works but its not ideal). I am not trying to sway your vote either way, Its your engine and your money. You need to make that decision and not us.

P.S.
The stock cam is alot better than most people give credit. Like stated above it can and will produce impressive results without comprimising idle quality and drivability. It also works well in blown applications too. For free you cant beat its results:D

Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah I know. Its my car and my money. I just wanted to get different ideas and opinions on the subject.

Now I know if I go with AFR's, ill get the 165's stud mount, but if I decide to go with TFS TW, which set should I get? I know little about the TFS stuff. Ive never really looked into them to see what they offer.

Right now im looking at a price around $3000 for a rebuilt shortblock with AFR heads. I take it this is a good price for a rebuild along with the set of heads, and im sure if I went with TFS, it would be a few hundred lower.
 

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FasterDamnit! said:
Stock cam, 1.7 rockers, ported Cobra intake, TW heads, 19lber's= 12.51 at 109.45mph, 1.77 60 ft.

:D

edit- 24mpg w/ A/C on, 26mpg A/C off. Hwy cruise, 5th gear, 80mph.
Jim, just curious as to why you say ported Cobra intake but not Ported TW heads?:confused:
 

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I have owned both heads, and have used the AFR 165's very successfully with the Baby Crower and stock intake (see sig).
The Crower has only 2 deg more duration than the stock cam at .050, so its real mild and great for an AOD. Really wakes up a blower car as well (much better than stock cam). A side benefit is that no one will know you have a cam in it!
I like the TW's as well, but would opt for the 165 in your situation.
Good luck.
 

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First I appoligize if my previous post wasnt taken in the way I intended for it to be taken, I was just giving you my opinion and thats all it was.

Something I think everyone overlooks when comparing these heads is that the AFRs have CNC machined ports which in my opinion if was done to the TFS heads would make them superior to the AFRs. My opinion and I stress this is that for the money and quality its real hard to beat the TFS. But again I am in no way saying that the AFRs arent a good product, just that if you compare the 2 in a real world application in which both were on identical engines with identical supporting components there would be little if no difference between them performance wise box stock. For some reason there seems to be a TFS sux and AFR rules mentality floating around that just isnt true. I have a friend with AFR 185s and they are a high quality product without a doubt, Worth 2-250 more than a Twisted Wedge? In my mind no they are not. I have run Windsor Srs, TFS Street Heats aka High Ports, first generation pedestal mount TW, FMS C302s and Canfields. All these heads were good and for a bolt on set up the TFS TW have done me the best job and I have had the least troubles out of them. Remember flow numbers dont mean everything because a flow bench cant simulate the effects of air flow in a running engine. So keep in mind its not an exact science and just a unit of measure, and therefore should only be used to illustrate the possible performance givin the right circumstances.


TFS TW is emmisions legal with 3/8 rocker studs. The TFS Track Heats are TW design also but are not emmisions legal hence no exhaust cross over, better retainers, springs, locks, machined for dual valve springs and have 7/16 rocker studs.
 
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