Ford Mustang Forums banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Own AC ACE (short lived successor to AC Cobra - only 44 made) with 5.0L EFI engine. Looks great but lacks go! Looking at lots of websites for upgrades, but would appreciate help to avoid shipping wrong or unsuitable parts to UK. (1) Car is 94 but engine could be 93 or 94. Believe curved intake manifold tract where throttle body mounts means its a 94. Is that right? Will probably play safe and go with GT40 manifold, E303 cam (auto trans) 65mm throttle etc, but like look of Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads with bigger valves. (2) Assuming 94 engine will valves clear pistons (9:1 comp) and ports align properly with GT manifold? (3) Where does EGR valve bolt - EGR spacer or manifold adaptor (M9927-A50) (4) Same with throttle cable bracket - adaptor or spacer. (5) Is there alternative to manifold adaptor that's less like elbow (more gentle curve) with EGR & throttle cable fixings? (AC doesn't have have struct across engine so more room under hood.) Finally, am told mods will not improve performance much unless ECU has new chip set up on dyno. Chip (or suggested Assy ECU) + dyno test in UK cost $1700 !! (Is there cheaper way to get results. (7) Is original airflow meter OK with mods.
Thanks for any advice
Max
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,388 Posts
Max,

Pretty rare little car ya got there! You sure you want to modify it? :)

I can't help with all your questions, but I'll try...

(1) Yup, curved cast aluminum elbow between the throttle body and intake manifold = '94/95 engine.

(2) I'm almost positive you'll have zero piston-to-valve clearance problems with TFS TW heads and the E303 cam. The only thing to be sure on would be which roller rocker ratio to go with - 1.6:1 or 1.7:1. Another cam option that a lot of guys seem to like over the E303 (and which would match your TFS heads well) is the TFS Stage 1 cam. I'm not a cam expert in the slightest, but the general consensus seems to be that it's better than the E303 due to the split duration profile.

So, heck, while I'm suggesting a different cam, how about a different intake too? :) I'd ditch the GT40 and go with a TFS Track Heat intake. Admittedly it's not as sharp-looking as the GT40, but it'll kick the GT40s ass performance-wise, and it's $150 cheaper to boot (based on prices at Summit Racing).

(3) thru (5) I'm not familiar with the '94/95 setup and how all that stuff is arranged, so I can't help you there.

(6) To truly optimize the setup, yes, you would need some sort of tuning done. However, the stock mass-air computer will react pretty well to mods, particularly when you stay naturally-aspirated. The overwhelming majority of guys on this board stick with the stock computer and have no problems at all. One thing you might want to look into is figuring out what ECU you have since your car is not "normal" - you may have a '94 engine with a different computer. The '87-93 A9L computers were (from what I've read) better performance-wise than the '94/95 computers (not sure what code was on the '94/95s, I wanna say TM40).

Long story short, you'll get nearly all of the performance gain just by swapping the parts. Additional tuning via chip or something like the TwEECer (www.tweecer.com) would allow you to really optimize things and pick up a bit more power.

(7) Yes, the original MAF sensor will be OK. However, as you do all this you'll start getting towards the limits of the stock injectors, so you might as well upgrade those to 24#ers while you do all this. In that case, you'll want to upgrade the MAF sensor, too - a nice ProM unit will work with the larger injectors and flow better = more power = having your cake and eating it, too. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,388 Posts
Bump for the UK guy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
Nice job Patrick. I'll chip in a few thoughts from the side. Regards the twEECer - basically Max it turns you into the chip burner. So as long as you're willing to take the time to learn about the workings of the ecu (there's lots of online users groups out there that share what they've learned) you can do the chip yourself. Who knows, you may get so good that you develop a bit of a business tuning other efi 5.0L's on the other side of the pond.

I see the intake manifold issue a bit differently from Patrick. While the TW intake will flow more than the GT40, for the mods you're looking at, you won't outflow either one. So I don't think there'll be a significant performance difference with the TW vs. GT40 - and the GT40 weighs a good 10 lbs. less because of the tubular vs. cast construction of the upper. Something else to consider.

How much does the ACE weigh? I'm guessing it's light enough that any loss/softening of bottom end won't really bother you. The mods you're contemplating will add power to the midrange and top end (above 3000) but will probably soften the bottom end (idle to 3000). Just need to be sure that the way you use the car, that's ok with you. Also need to be sure the stall speed of the converter in the auto is consistent with the new torque curve. I'm with Patrick - I think the Stage one cam from TFS is a better choice than the E; if you want to preserve more of the bottom end, stay with the stock cam. It actually works quite well with the improved breathing of the manifold and heads.

Be sure to free up the exhaust side equally; and you ought to think about a 65mm throttle body and a 75mm maf to open up the intake side all the way. If you stick with the stock cam, you can probably retain the 19# injectors; if you upgrade the cam, your power level will be such that the injectors should probably move up to 24's. You'll need a recalibrated maf for the larger injectors, or you can use the chip or twEECer to tell the computer what size injectors you have.

Lastly, you should always measure piston to valve clearance to be certain. You'll probably be ok with the stock cam; with the bigger valves and a longer duration cam, you'll have less clearance; either way, you need to measure to be sure.

Good luck with it!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,388 Posts
That's a good point about the intakes, Michael, I hadn't thought of it that way. I also agree with everything else you said.

Max, starting on modifying a 302 is a slippery slope. You can start with little things, but the more things you decide the change the more you'll find, "Well, if I also upgraded X, which would only be another $200, it will be even better! And if I'm gonna do X, I might as well upgrade Y, too, which would only be another $300!" and on and on... :D

Pat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Max - Michael has helped me out a lot b/c we both have 5.0s in converted cars, sort of like your AC. Only thing I would re-state is the possiblility of keeping the stock cam for its driveability and instead swapping in a set of FMS Cobra/Crane 1.7 roller rockers. For my Volvo, just getting to the cam was going to be a nightmare, so the rockers were a better solution in that regard, too.

Another tip from Michael you might want to keep in mind concerns the dimensions of possible other heads. Since can be limited width-wise in the engine bay, we both went with the FMS aluminum head, which are exactly the same dimensionally. As Patrick said, it's a slippery slope, and you might buy a set of TFS Hi-Ports only to find that it shifts your headers into contact with the sterring shaft or floor board....

I had to take my time sorting through the hundreds of hop-up parts available for the 5.0 to avoid blowing my budget or buying a piece that would turn out incompatible with my car.... Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
Great tips Mfalcon (alias George) - good show over in SC; perfect weather. I averaged 25.2 mpg for the 700 mile round trip and the car was a hit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Michael - sorry I missed the SC event and seeing your car. Great mpg, too, even if that's not so popular a topic on here.

I'm still working on getting parts together, on the cheap so it takes time.... Got my heads delivered and have found tb/egr for $100, so only have intake and MAF to go.

One last thing, no George's in my family. No offense taken and none intended in this reply, but I respond to 'Wesley' most of the time.... You been using brake cleaner too much, or something?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi Michael. Thanks for replying.

Ace is not light - thats part of the problem. Although alloy hood, doors and boot lid + CFR front & rear panels, it has cromweld (form of stainless) chassis and weighs in at hefty 3200 lbs +. Add in auto trans loss and result is it doesn't go as good as it looks. Out of interest, car was 95 Detroit motor show exhibit - hence L/H drive & auto box. Milage from new 4000.

What am I looking for? Not one for screaming start or revving to limit - too much respect for mechanical things. But have auto V12 Jag saloon and get greatest buzz poodling @ 30-40 mph and flooring it to overtake. Box will shift instantly to 1st and really takeoff (BW Model 12 box - old technnology, but effective). Problem with Ace (a) box doesn't really know what gear to select - will think about it, change down a cog then part way through manouver change down again. By then revs have soared and engine is running out of steam (b) general lack of engine grunt. I've discovered Baumann do adjustable valve kit that's supposed to improve shift quality. Next problem, is it an AOD or AOD-E box. (All factory records destroyed.)

As I write, I wonder whether it might be better to go supercharger route. Perhaps with TFS heads (why nowdays does anyone fit iron GT40 heads?), GT40 manifold (yes, do like look + as you say, has weight advantage) and different headers (I'd already spotted those OEM jobs had to do - they must strangle exhaust gasses). MAC equal length headers look OK, but are they stainless? Also I'm a bit tight for room. Otherwise, will probably go with GT40. Factory made 2 cars with superchargers. One caught fire, then there was one! It would certainly give all round improvement. Downside, fuel consumption (only get about 15-16 now and Brit. government luvs taxing petrol.)

Any thoughts on the idea? What throttle body, maf & injector sizes with charger?

Any knowledge on the mechanics of setting up with twEECer? Know you use PC with software supplied. But can't have mile long lead trailing back to PC whilst screaming up road (joke!). So is dyno test still required or use PC to tell twEECer what's been fitted which in turn adjusts ECU? Will twEECer work with supercharger?

Patrick is right about slippery slope. Knew of Edelbrock from years back. Found their website and thought their Performer kit would do me. Then learnt of Ace owner who fitted GT40 kit. He put me onto McCarvill Ford. From their website discovered just what's available. Then the confusion set in!

Don't know about setting up business tuning EFI 5.0L's. 44 cars hardly constitutes great demand. + 20 odd years repairing Jags for living, I think I've had enough of motor trade!

Still puzzled whether manifold adaptor is required when car doesn't have brace across engine bay. Without knowing reason would have thought I could use pre 94 manifold setup.

Thanks again for input. Max
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi Michael. Ace is not light - that's part of problem. Although alloy hood, doors & boot + CRF front & rear panels, it has chromweld (type of stainless) chassis and weights in at hefty 3200 lbs. Add in auto loss and it doesn't go as good as it looks. Car was 95 Detroit show exhibit; hence L/H drive & auto box. Mileage from new 4000.

What am I looking for? Not one for screaming away from standing strat or revving to limit - too much respect for mechanical things. But also own auto V12 Jag and get greatest buzz poodling @ 30-40 mph and flooring it to overtake. Box will instantly shift to 1st and really takeoff (BW Model 12 box - old technology, but effecticve). Ace box on other hand doesn't really know what to select. Will think about it, change down, then part way through manouver change down again. By then revs have soared and engine's getting breathless. Add in lack of engine grunt, result mediocre acceleration.

I've just found Baumann Engineering site who do adjustable valve kit to improve shift quality. So that's one to add to list. Is 94 trans. AOD or AOD-E?

As I write, wonder whether it might be better to go supercharger route, perhaps with TFS heads, (why does anyone use iron heads nowdays - iron GT40?), GT40 manifold (do like look + weight advantage, as you say) and different headers. (Yes, I'd spotted those OEM items had to go - they must strangle engine). MAC equal length headers look good, but doesn't say if they're stainless. Room could be problem if wider than OEM - otherwise probably GT40 headers. Factory made 2 fitted with superchargers - one caught fire: then there was one! Charger would certainly give increase throughout range, but heavier fuel consumption? (Only get about 16 mph now and Brit government luvs taxing petrol.)

Any thoughts on that idea? What size throttle body, maf and injectors with charger? Whilst on the subject, what's the effect if too big a throttle body is fitted? Is it the same as too big a carb?

Regarding the mechanics of setting up with twEECer, I know they supply software to use on PC, but can't scream up road with mile long lead trailing back to PC (sorry, my little joke!). So do you use dyno test to setup or tell twEECer via PC what's been fitted which in turn adjusts ECU? Will twEECer work with supercharger?

Patrick is right about slipper slope. Knew of Edelbrock from way back. Found their website and thought, Yes, their Performer kit will do me. Then heard of Ace owner who'd fitted GT40 kit. He put me onto McCarvill Ford site from where I discovered just what's available. Then the confusion set in!

Don't know about setting up business tuning EFI 5.0L's. 44 cars hardly constitutes great demand and 20 years in motor trade repairing Jags I think I've had enough!

Still puzzled whether I need manifold adaptor with no brace across engine bay, or can use pre 94 setup with EGR and throttle bolted direct to intake.

Thanks for taking time to reply. Max
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
I was gonna ask if you'd considered a supercharger set up -- that may be an easier way to go. Can't help you with the automatic foibles - never owned one. Perhaps others will chime in.

Bang for the buck tilts the supercharger approach in my opinion. Little impact on drivability or economy if you keep your foot out of it. A 70 mm throttle body, 73/5 mm maf ought to do the trick - no reason you can't get rid of the angled adapter if you want to, in fact most supercharger set ups will require you to as they'll re-plumb the intake piping. The stock lower intake and heads are bottlenecks, but there are plenty of completely stock 350+HP supercharged 5.0L's over here. More peak power's available later if you like by switching to better heads/intake/cam.

With a modest amount of boost (5-8 psi) you ought to pick up at least 100 HP/torque, and 30# injectors ought to be fine. Some people manage fuel by simply blowing through an maf calibrated for the larger injectors; some use an fmu - which increases fuel pressure to the injectors proportionally with boost. As you do your supercharger research you can decide which approach you want to take. With boost pumping charge in, getting it out will help - so anything you can do to free up the exhaust side will help. The twEECer has a data log option that allows you to drive around and store data (wireless except for the connection to the ecu inside the car). That way you can drive and tune to your heart's content without ever putting it on a dyno. Do some internet searches on twEECer and you'll find some resource groups out there. Most folks find that by adjusting air/fuel ratio on supercharged set ups, they can significantly improve power output. The supercharged setups are designed to run safely rich as detonation is not the best friend of engine under boost. Especially your engine - your pistons are hypereutectic, not forged, so you want a conservative amount of boost and a safe tune (rich) -- no piston likes boost/detonation mix - hypers least of all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
Sorry for the brain fart Sr. Boozer....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
Anytime Max - happy to try and help. I know when you're ordering stuff like this, you've got to try and get it right the first time. The 94/95 computer is more recalcitrant when it comes to mods than some of the earlier ones - some head/cam/intake mods to them often require more tuning to get right. That may point you in the direction of a supercharger as well.'

By the way, I knew that the ACE market wasn't huge; my comment about you tuning for others was aimed more at what appears to be a burgeoning street rod/American muscle market over there -- at least if you believe the coverage in our magazines over here. I gotta think a lot of those street rodders would love to run a contemporary efi set up if they felt confident they could 'play' with things. But, I'm mostly just makin' all that up!! Later Max....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
Oh - Max, there is a guy who posts regularly either here or on Stangnet.com that has a 5.0 Mustang in the UK. He's commented on being careful about ordering parts so he gets it right. You might try another post with something like "5.0L Stangers in the UK" or something like that. I can't think of the name he posts under. You 2 might be able to hook up depending on where he's located.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
Max - do a search for BOSSCAT, pull up one of his threads, and send him a "message". He's stationed in England somewhere, and his signature shows he's got an 87 Mustang powered by a supercharged 5.0L; don't know if he has it over there or not, but he should be a good resource if he's willing to talk to you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Max - You can see why I sit at the feet of Master Yount to benefit from his wide-ranging knowledge of internal combustion devices. He has illuminated much for me, such that I don't mind if he calls me George (except for it being the current idiot President's name as well). Anyway, think you could figure out the corral pic posting process to give us a glimpse of your Ace? Hope so. -Wesley
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,891 Posts
Sorry again Wesely - when I entered data when we were trading emails, I got your entry and the one above it (a fellow named 'George') transposed. When I saw your email, I remembered Boozer, but couldn't remember Wesley - so I looked it up only to discover once again that garbage in equals garbage out. You'll be glad to know that if he emails me, I'll call him Wesley. That'll even things out in the greater karmic scheme of things. :) Thanks - I updated my info.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sorry Wesley/George. Would love to post picture of Ace, but don't have the know-how or technology. Think I need digital camera, which I don't possess Thanks for the interest though.

Did you receive my question regarding head sizes? (Think I sent private message in error.) You warned differing head sizes might cause unforeseen foul-ups. I assume you mean the heads have same basic dimensions, but porting might mean shorties are not where expected. (Think I used wrong word and used headers instead of shorties.) That's the difficulty this side of the water : the use of jargon that's difficult to comprehend. Still I guess deciphering what's your being told is half the fun!

Modified 5.0 in Volvo. That must fool a few people! My own claim to fame as young lad was converting V12 E to EFI soon after Jaguar began fitting system. At the time was the only one ever done. Went very well.

Sorry to learn your illustious leader is not to your liking. I shall refrain from commenting on the smarmy git we've got.

Thanks also to Michael for the latest batch of tips & to Patrick for his help.

Will keep in touch (not sure how), but no more stupid questions for now - time for serious research.

Regards Max
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,388 Posts
I'll throw some more info in here. :) If a supercharger is an option, might I suggest a Kenne Bell screw-type blower vice one of the more common Vortech/Paxton/Procharger centrifugal blowers. I've never had a Kenne Bell'd car myself, but basically everyone says it makes a 302 feel like a big block because of the big low end torque boost. The Ace strikes me as being a grand touring kind of car, vice an all-out sports car, so I would think good low and mid range power would suit the car. It would also be good with an automatic.

Check them out at www.kennebell.net - the "standard" 5.0L Mustang kit is here http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/ford/mustang50/mustang50.htm . The only thing that would worry me initially is hood clearance, since I don't imagine an aftermarket hood is an option with your car. :)

Regarding your question about the Tweecer, basically it works with a laptop in the car, which you connect via USB to the J3 service port on the EEC. I didn't have a laptop, so I picked up a cheap one used for $125 or something ridiculous like that - you don't need much of a machine, because the program doesn't require anything with lots of processor speed or memory. Once you have it hooked up, the latest version (Tweecer RT) allows you to watch engine parameters in real-time, and you can also datalog and review the data once you're done driving. You can adjust pretty much anything the stock EEC can adjust, so the flexibility is huge. That's actually a bit daunting, as there's lots to learn and nobody has really come out with a good "beginner's guide" that tells you where to start. There is plenty of on-line support, you'll just have to do quite a bit of reading. That's the stage I'm at now.

As for the discussion of head dimensions, if you stick to the "normal" aftermarket heads (vice the really high performance ones) you'll be fine. Some of the higher end heads (TFS High Ports, I think the big Canfields, etc) have raised exhaust ports to promote better exhaust flow, but those raised exhaust ports obviously move the headers, which might be a concern in your engine bay. Basically, the types of heads you would be looking to buy wouldn't be a concern.

For headers, I would avoid MAC, as you can get better quality for only a bit more money. I would suggest (as you already mentioned) the Ford Racing shorty headers - part number FMS-M9430N95. They're stainless steel and very high quality, and only cost ~$240.

Pat
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top