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Discussion Starter #1
I feel that I'm at a crossroads in my 331 project. I am having trouble deciding the cost affectiveness of pruchasing the Victor 5.0 for intake comparison purposes. I just bought the Holley SysteMAX intake, which didn't meet my gaols, but got me closer to the rpm range I am looking for (6,300-6,400) on a hydro-roller cam.

After recently testing the heavily ported Edelbrock RPM intake against my new Holley SysteMAX, the results, listed below, only favored the Holley by 2.3 rwhp/ -28 rwtq, but at 500 rpm higher than the RPM intake.

RPM- max rwhp: 393.5 @ 5,700/ max rwtq: 407.9 @ 3,900
max rwhp: 389.8 @ 5,800/ max rwtq: 388.8 @ 3,900

Holley- max rwhp:[email protected] 6,200/ max rwtq: 379.3 @ 5,100
max rwhp:[email protected] 6,100/ max rwtq: 374.5 @ 5,050

Now, I'm advised by TEA to run 3" exhaust from collector, all the way back. This seems like a pretty expensive mod to replace the entire exhaust system (if I go to a stepped header also).

If I buy the Victor 5.0 for testing, and I don't like one or the other (Holley), I can sell the lesser favorite, minus some depreciation? Problem is, if you consider the trade off (tq for hp) by going to the Holley, you'd think that the Vic 5.0 is only going to be more extreme, right? I don't want to give up too much tq, as I have ran a best 60' of 1.52 with RPM intake. Any opinions on the projected results of this intake on my 331? I think I have the cam duration for it, 240/ 244 (int/ex), and compression (11.5:1) needed.

What do you think, exhaust mod next? or Victor 5.0 comparison? Please help!

Andy
 

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i would say no on the victor...you should be abble to go over 400 rwhp with the holley.

you should try disconnecting the exhaust after the x-pipe and running it to see if it shows any improvement at all and if it does(which i think it will)then go ahead and change the system out.

i would definatly go with the 13/4 to 17/8 step headers and 3" x-pipe.

i am building a 347 right now and this is the exhaust i will be running.
 

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also...im not saying i think the victor is bad because im going to try one also im just saying the goal of 400rwhp or more is easily reachable by the holley..
 

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If your starting to experience exhaust restrictions now, then going with more intake flow capacity will not help. The Victor will most likely lose a lot of torque at lower engine speeds without helping significantly on top. I would try a 3" exhaust using your existing 1 3/4" headers.

If those BBK's haven't been modified then the collector necks down to near 2.25" at the ball end anyway. I might try cutting the ends off and welding on a good 3" flanged collector that's at least 6-8" long before springing for a new header. This along with a free flowing 3" crossover pipe and muffler should make a difference.

The better torque numbers you had with the RPM seem to correspond with results others on this board have gotten compared to the Trick Flow Track Heat intake. The Holley will support a bit more engine speed but at some expense it appears. Looks like that RPM intake is a hard intake to beat with most combinations. Remember, it's torque that accellerates you down the track not horsepower. Better HP numbers will help on trap speed, but ET usually wins races. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks guys! I needed to hear other peoples opinions besides my ever changing mind for this rediculous quest for max HP! I was hoping someone would chime in on the TQ issue because I don't want to loose my improving 60' times (1.52 sec) by making inexperienced sacrifices. I've made many of those! lol

I did price out the Kooks stepped headers, which sound like the ultimate exhaust option, and they are very pricey. I know that you get what you pay for, because I have BBK 1 3/4 LT's with 2 1/4" collectors, what a joke! I did open them up to true 2 1/2" before last dyno with RPM intake. Anyone know where I can buy a good 3" collector to weld on to these BBK lt's?

Andy
 

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Hooker 11730HKR is a 12" long 1 3/4" X 3" slip-on collector

Hooker 14730HKR is a 12" long 1 3/4" X 3" merged slip-on collector

You will also need a 11430HKR collector ring kit with either collector to hook up to an exhaust system.

MAC makes slip-on collectors too, but I don't have those part numbers.
 

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Well the fact is that the vic intake flows more than the holley and has shorter runners. what will happen is that the vic intake will raise your power band up noticeably but your torque will fall off the roof, if you thought 20+ foot pounds was bad you should just double that for the vic manifold. but remember that if your goal is peak numbers than the vic is the way to go, if your goal is killing it at carlsbad then you where better off with the rpm manifold. also i think that it would have been possible to make a plenum spacer for the rpm due to the removable cover.
i think with the vic manifold and the step headers combined with 3 inch all the way exhaust then you could get your big numbers and it might even get you a better time slip because you have enough gear to loose torque but you have so much gear that you need extra rpm. so my last 2 cents is that i think the exhaust and vic manifold combo could get you the best of both worlds. i am redoing my whole 351 combo and i have a 351 tfs R intake on the way and i am gonna work a set of performer heads to the max, i am too wondering if the r intake is the way to go (you know short runner). we'll see, my goal is to beat loi to half track on the motor with my mad launches, hehe.
paul
 

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i guess i contadicted my self. what i meant to say is that the rpm would be the killer strip intake if you had less gear.
 

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I have to disagree here. If one of your ultimate goals is to see 400rwhp, I think the Victor is the way to go. Yes you will give up some torque to the holley, but the fact that you will have another 300 rpms added to your shiftpoint should make that up at the end of the track. You run a 4.30 gear right? What is your finish line rpm now vs with a Victor. It might be worthwhile.

Save the $1000 bucks in exhaust mods, switch to the Victor, and if it works well you have cost yourself $0 dollars (Selling the Holley to offset the Victor). Always a nice tradeoff.
 

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I would step up the injectors to 42's and try the Victor 5.0. I agree with Mike, you will have more RPM at the end of the track which benefits the 4.30's. Torque will drop off sooner because of the shorter runners, but you will make up for it up top. What is it revving at, at the line?
 

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42's for a N/A small block? 30's would work just fine in my opinion and maybe a 36 with chip or calibrated meter but 42's? obviosly the combo is efficient and will have a good BSFC so injector canbe quite small. there is a guy in LA who i saw running 11.0's with a similar setup and he had 24's !
 

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I'm working on a 331ci motor. I would say no to the Victor 5.0. Everything I've read about it is good, if you are building high rpm race car. Let's face it, most of us hydraulic cam guys know we won't see anything past 6500 rpms especially with a stroker. I've read enough tests to tell you that you will lose torque which is something you don't want when your motor won't see past 6500 rpms with a hydraulic cam. As far as exhaust goes, I will be running a 3" diameter exhaust.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Game plan A

OK, here's what Ill try to do: I will order the Kooks 1 3/4- 17/8" stepped headers (31" primaries) w/ 3" merge collectors $$, 3" X-pipe, and 3" Race Magnums w/ turndowns. After this installation, along with Meziere electric water pump, new 75mm inlet pipe, I will take it back up to Danny Swanson @ Swanson Performance for another dyno-tune (Autologolic chip). Then, I will do track testing all summer long....

When this fall rolls along and it's raining on weekends, where I won't be able to race much, I'll tear it back down again. Then I will go for a bigger cam and Victor 5.0 intake with portmatching to heads. How does that sound for a plan?

Paul,
Since this motor is now making power to 6,400 before really dropping off, I'm hoping to get a few more rpm with this exhaust, and definitely a few more ponies/ tq! I am close to 6,400-6,500 rpm running through the traps, with this setup, currently.


Andy
 

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I beg to differ on the Victor 5.0 intake. First of all power and tq are related.

This man wants more tq at higher rpm.

First I don't think his TQ will drop much more than the holley, TQ is going to be based on the air speed, and between what this guy and N2088 has measured, the Holley actually has a larger cross section.

From results on Anderson, the Vic 5.0 doesn't appear to lose too much low speed tq from porting.

I think the TQ will be within 5 rwtq of the holley. However from 5000-6500 I don't think the rwtq will fall off as much as the holley, heck I don't think it will fall more than 15rwtq. What this means is a hell of a HP difference over the holley - I Think over 30rwhp with the right exhaust system.

The runner length will determine the range at which you get your boost from resonanse tuning.

The holley is just running out of its resonanse tuned range right around its TQ peak. This is why the tq falls so quick after it hits the peak.

Normally you have this "boost" from resonsance tuning over a 4000 RPM range. The Vic on a 302 is approx 3000-7000 RPM.

Back on TQ - How is the TQ going to drop that much when Anderson has several 302-306 with this intake and they are in the 335-350rwtq range? This is 29 less cubic inches.

I believe this man will still be in the 380-390rwtq range - ESPECIALLY after he is tuned.

The TQ curve will be a defined SHELF, with the top of the shelf coming on strong from 3500-6500 RPM. He will be in the middle of his "SHELF" when the HOlley is falling off strong.

For best Power he is to take advantage of the flow from .450-.600" on those heads and run the 1.72 intake rocker. The exhaust is fine. This will give him a boost in TQ from 3500 and up with no low speed TQ loss.

The exhaust system can be as follows, with cost and power concerned:

The Kooks 1 3/4" LT or Bassani 1 3/4" LT , tube of 32-34" 3" collector, good collector design.

3" of exhaust to the 3" X pipe, after the 3" X pipe he can neck down to 2.5" exhaust system which features a straight thru muffler.

All the 400-550rwhp C5 LT1 vettes still have 2.5" exhaust for most of the exhaust system.

The header collector MUST be 3" with good collector though and there needs to be significant amount of 3" piping after the collector 6-12". Best compromise will be necking down to the 2.5" after the crosss over.

For max power and at the track he can expirament with taking the mufflers off.

With this combo we are talking a good 450rwhp without changing the cam. The 1.72 rockers must be tried.

TQ peak will still be at approx the same point, and approx the same number, we will simply have changed the TQ curve.

Look at the TQ curves on the Anderson site, you can then extrapolate how much power you will get if you stretch that TQ peak for another 1500rpm...
 

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Discussion Starter #16
BigDaddyLTD LX,

What do you suspect will be the results after switching to the Kooks 1 3/4- 1 7/8" stepped headers w/3" merge collectors and 3" Kooks X-pipe, from the current BBK 1 3/4" w/ 2 1/2" collectors and 2 1/2" Dr Gas X-pipe? Will this gain or loose TQ production? Oh, is it worth the $$ to have headers ceramic coated?

Andy
 

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I don't think the header on that small a motor needs to be stepped to 1 7/8". A good 1 3/4" header is all you need.

If the header is right for the application, the TQ curve will pick up across the board.

The high end TQ will pick up from the 3" exhuast, I think the 3" will hurt the low speed tq.

I don't think you need a 3" exhuast all the way back.

Overall I don't know whats giong to happen, I do know that you will pick up from the bbk headers. We are probably talking a good 10rwhp.

I think with the Victor 5.0 and tuning you are going to be closing in on the 450rwhp mark before 6500 rpm.
 

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I would not vote for the Vic 5.0 (though I would LOVE to see the before/after dyno results of all three superimposed!!!), because you are not running a high rev +7000 rpm hydro or a solid. You would probably be best off tuning that Holley or going back to the RPM.

However, that's some interesting before after data. The results with the TEA TW 185's are a little better than Streetpower's results with the Holley vs. the ported RPM with the AFR185's, but not that much better. Neither of you guys use a PMS/Tuner to dial in AF ratio and timing as a function of rpm. That of course keeps you guys from optimizing your results, as does AFM.

It's amazing, however, how different the results are from the NA intake dyno testing that AFM published a while back. In that article, bolting on a Holley added +20 rwhp compared to an RPM. Of course, they were both unported intakes, so maybe the rag was on the money. I'm sure the stock RPM doesn't flow that much compared to the stock Holley.

From what I've read from other posts, I believe the Holley needs a PMS or something to re-tune that AF ratio over the power band (especially mid range) to maximize its torque potential. I think the other common denominator in the fast Holley cars is a +7000 rpm shift point and a lot of gear. That seems to be the formual for a lot of the NMRA Pure Street cars.

Hendricks swithched from an RPM(ported) to a Holley(stock?), and only gained about 10 rwhp, but he said he got a wider power band.
 

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Wow I really didn't expect the Holley to affect your combo in a similar fashion to mine given your larger ported TFS TW's, larger cam, more compression, etc. Fact appears that the Edelbrock RPM is just a more balanced/efficient NA intake and can support solid power numbers (especially tq) when proper porting is applied.

Now given the direction your going with your car - 4.30 gear, dragstrip warrior, 6500rpms, 3100lb race weight, etc - I'd say you don't look back now and continue with aggressive components. Nice Kooks or Bassani 1 3/4 or 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 stepped LT's, 3" x-pipe, and either keep your 2.5" mufflers/turndowns or go 3" there too (not as important IMHO). Darrin Hendricks and Joe Correia have both proven that the improved header (at least) and possibly 3" exhaust is beneficial on this power level NA. Do the exhaust first keeping the Holley and re-test. Than depending on those results consider the Vic 5.0 or possibly having the Holley lower ported/welded/flow balanced to your heads. Although the Vic 5.0 seems the more intelligent financial move. And the Edelbrock design has proven to have good balance right out of the box.

We differ cause my car is more of a cruiser/streetcar than yours as is readily apparent with my 3.73's, handling suspension, 10.25 to 1 compression, 232/240 cam, 3500lb race weight vert, etc,etc. Personally I'd rather have your powerband when you were using the ported RPM making 393rwhp/407rwtq at lower rpms. But ultimately YOU will be better with a Vic 5.0/3" exh setup making 420rwhp/380-390rwtq or so at higher rpms. Different combos - different approach.

Best of luck!
 
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