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Discussion Starter #1
I'm building a stock block turbo car. I bought a Astro A5 as I'll be doing more street driving than track. I like to hit the Friday night drags a few times per month. Hooking up on our poorly maintained track is going to be a challenge with the 5 speed. I'd probably run the Clutch Tamer to get some consistency.

Then there's all of your buddies telling you to run an auto. The age old debate rears it's ugly head....

Here's the skinny;
I will have a radiator, ac condenser, 4" thick heat exchanger and finally; a tranny cooler. All of this in the Phoenix blistering heat. I'll be running a dual (1") core radiator, high flow water pump and T-stat along with Contour fans set to come on at lower temps.

I'm thinking this is going to be a recipe for disaster. I don't think there's any room for a remote tranny cooler and fan underneath the car. Then we have the big converter building heat on the street possibly shortening the life of the auto in short order. One really can't compare their car in a cooler environment. The heat here is extreme. The heat off of the pavement in summer can be 120*-140*. Folks from Vegas or parts of Texas can relate.

Maybe do away with the heat exchanger and run meth injection?
I keep thinking the auto is going to be very boring.

Thoughts? Experience? Yes; I'm bored.
 

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An auto is "boring" in a slow car. Cooling everything can be done. Look at all of the high HP new cars that are sold in Az and Tx. They have auto trans, A/C and so much more and those are able to manage high heat environments. Obviously the OEM has resources to R&D these cars and they have high power processors that crunch data and perform failure analysis among other things, like say, test tracks in Az and Tx.
I think a lot of improvement could be made in managing air flow into your radiator/coolers. Obviously proper sizing of any fluid coolers is a must.
So I firmly believe that there is a solution to your issues.
 

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Put the auto in... I have a lot of what you have including the two turbos directly behind the radiator and I have no issue keeping my car cool in 110* downtown, stop-n-go traffic. Nothing is hi-flow on my car (still using stock GT fan and shroud) but it does have a Mishimoto 3-core radiator.

Keeping the trans cool will be a lot easier if using a lockup converter but this only works when driving so it can be locked up. I did a lot of research on coolers before buying it and this one works great but I also designed the whole system to get air through it. The fan rarely kicks on when driving it and when it does it's only for a minute or so. I use 1/2" aluminum lines to help dissipate instead of hoses, too.

Just gotta think of every bit of the system to make sure that each specific part will help keep things cool and keep fluid steadily moving.

Meth inj. won't keep it cool since it only comes on under boost but under boost you can probably run more boost with it since it's adding octane. I made 720hp on 91Oct and Meth before switching to a flex fuel setup.

I have buildup pics here:
Project BALROG

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #4
An auto is "boring" in a slow car. Cooling everything can be done. Look at all of the high HP new cars that are sold in Az and Tx. They have auto trans, A/C and so much more and those are able to manage high heat environments. Obviously the OEM has resources to R&D these cars and they have high power processors that crunch data and perform failure analysis among other things, like say, test tracks in Az and Tx.
I think a lot of improvement could be made in managing air flow into your radiator/coolers. Obviously proper sizing of any fluid coolers is a must.
So I firmly believe that there is a solution to your issues.
I hear you and thought about new cars. They also have much more advanced computers that pull back performance in many areas in the hot months. Heck; even their autos are more efficient. I'd love to have the 10r80 that's in my EcoBoost behind my pushrod engine. I wish my '94 had more frontal area and room for a larger radiator. My last two builds were 347's with 5 speeds. The first one started out with an AODE and the tranny and engine temps were high. One day the car ect hit 235* before I knew it. I swapped to a 5 speed and it made a big improvement in ect's. I had a heck of a time getting the strokers to run cool and never was confident in heavy traffic.
I'm shooting for 500rwhp which isn't huge so I don't know if an auto would be boring or not. I've never driven one. How is a high stall converter going to effect tranny fluid temps? I have zero experience with them.

Last time I knew; MFE on this forum had overheating problems with his car while trying to run AC. We're talking a very mild built Fox that road races. It has all of the cooling mods that that type of car regularly has. There's no 4" heat exchanger on the front of his car and it's a stick. It's brutal here.

A bit of trivia....Back in the day; Modine came out with a heavy duty radiator line called the "Desert Cooler". The brass radiator was designed specifically for desert dwellers.
 

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You can have any radiator made anyway you want if you have the bucks. Back in the day, I dropped a built 351W into a 61-62 Austin Healey 3000. The frontal area was so small that we had a copper/brass radiator made that was 7 rows deep. The rows were staggered. The area behind the front grill was boxed in to force all the air coming into the front of the car to go through the radiator. Vents were put in the front fender behind the front tires to let engine compartment heat escape (think 81' Pont Trans Am type). That worked really well. BTW, the car also had a T-5 trans and 9" rear. It was a "Hoot" to drive.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Put the auto in... I have a lot of what you have including the two turbos directly behind the radiator and I have no issue keeping my car cool in 110* downtown, stop-n-go traffic. Nothing is hi-flow on my car (still using stock GT fan and shroud) but it does have a Mishimoto 3-core radiator.

Keeping the trans cool will be a lot easier if using a lockup converter but this only works when driving so it can be locked up. I did a lot of research on coolers before buying it and this one works great but I also designed the whole system to get air through it. The fan rarely kicks on when driving it and when it does it's only for a minute or so. I use 1/2" aluminum lines to help dissipate instead of hoses, too.

Just gotta think of every bit of the system to make sure that each specific part will help keep things cool and keep fluid steadily moving.

Meth inj. won't keep it cool since it only comes on under boost but under boost you can probably run more boost with it since it's adding octane. I made 720hp on 91Oct and Meth before switching to a flex fuel setup.

I have buildup pics here:
Project BALROG

ks
You officially suck! Lol! The stock SN95 fan won't cool my car. BTDT. Here you are with 2 turbos sitting behind the radiator and I can barely keep a stroker cool. Do you run AC?
I don't know if you caught it but I was referring to ditching the geat exchanger in favor of meth inj. That would sure free up some real estate up front.
Your car is sweet. My son has a full effort road race car with a Livernois 5.1 2v. It has some crazy Logan sheet metal intake and ported TrickFlow heads. It runs 100 octane and has a 11.3 cr. It's a class limited engine build.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You can have any radiator made anyway you want if you have the bucks. Back in the day, I dropped a built 351W into a 61-62 Austin Healey 3000. The frontal area was so small that we had a copper/brass radiator made that was 7 rows deep. The rows were staggered. The area behind the front grill was boxed in to force all the air coming into the front of the car to go through the radiator. Vents were put in the front fender behind the front tires to let engine compartment heat escape (think 81' Pont Trans Am type). That worked really well. BTW, the car also had a T-5 trans and 9" rear. It was a "Hoot" to drive.
Ha! How cool is that!
 

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Yea, I know! =D

Here's the way I look at turbos cars: For the most part they are built mild enough that they can be considered "Stock". They don't have high compression, they don't have cam's that trap a lot of air in the cylinders during cruise, etc. So, IMO, the factory cooling system will work just fine so no need to update it. Yes, there may be an intercooler in front but these are usually free flowing enough to allow air through plus the factory parts are damn good as-is and are not designed to be on the edge of cooling from the factory.

A lot of us hot rodders think we need to "redesign" what the factory did by installing different pullies, different water pumps, different radiators, etc but usually when these are replace is when heating issues arrise...go figure. Us hot rodders CANNOT design a better system simply by throwing parts at it. Put stock parts back in it and make sure they are good and clean. A larger radiator with more cooling fins can help BUT more fins doesn't mean better cooling if air can't pass through it.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yea, I know! =D

Here's the way I look at turbos cars: For the most part they are built mild enough that they can be considered "Stock". They don't have high compression, they don't have cam's that trap a lot of air in the cylinders during cruise, etc. So, IMO, the factory cooling system will work just fine so no need to update it. Yes, there may be an intercooler in front but these are usually free flowing enough to allow air through plus the factory parts are damn good as-is and are not designed to be on the edge of cooling from the factory.

A lot of us hot rodders think we need to "redesign" what the factory did by installing different pullies, different water pumps, different radiators, etc but usually when these are replace is when heating issues arrise...go figure. Us hot rodders CANNOT design a better system simply by throwing parts at it. Put stock parts back in it and make sure they are good and clean. A larger radiator with more cooling fins can help BUT more fins doesn't mean better cooling if air can't pass through it.

ks
You make a valid point about the car being stock during cruise and heavy traffic except that I am altering the factory design by putting a large heat exchanger and stacked plate tranny cooler up front. No? Something has to be upgraded to account for these additions. I have a Contour fan setup sitting here and I'm contemplating installing it on the stock radiator. I had to redesign the cooling system on the '95. I think I did a thread on the trials and tribulations. The stroker wasn't happy in the heat at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
P.S. I'm not trying to be difficult. I just know what I've gone through in the past.
I detect no AC on your car; Kevin?
I just saw where you placed the tranny cooler. Perfect.
 

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I know, you're not being difficult so keep the questions coming!

Yes, I have AC on my car with a brand new condenser and straight fins.. It's a street car, after all.. =)

As you saw I have my tranny cooler in the fender and angled to catch air coming through the frontend. I also put the cooler fan behind it so it pulls air through it instead of blocking air coming into it when it's not on. I used a leaf blower to help see how air may flow through it before mounting it and it worked pretty good as a test.

If you're creative enough you can get the trans coolers on and it won't affect the engine cooling. Yes, it will need custom fabricated mounts but if you think through it all it will work just fine. I even looked at running smaller dual coolers one on each side but by the time I did my leaf blower test and choosing to use aluminum lines I figured it was overkill. Look at different shapes if needed but don't go cheap on them. Make sure the tubes are large. Some advertise -8AN or -10 fittings but the tubes are really tiny which are the restriction so having large fittings does nothing.
Also, Count the cooling fins! There were a lot that looked like mine but after looking at photos and doing research they didn't have the amount of cooling fins mine did. This is easy to miss b/c a lot look the same!

I have seen more threads on cars running hot with the contour fans so I'm not sure why change the stock one. I still have the stock one on mine and have never had a reason to change it. Maybe someone will swap you a stock setup for your Contours..?

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I know, you're not being difficult so keep the questions coming!

Yes, I have AC on my car with a brand new condenser and straight fins.. It's a street car, after all.. =)

As you saw I have my tranny cooler in the fender and angled to catch air coming through the frontend. I also put the cooler fan behind it so it pulls air through it instead of blocking air coming into it when it's not on. I used a leaf blower to help see how air may flow through it before mounting it and it worked pretty good as a test.

If you're creative enough you can get the trans coolers on and it won't affect the engine cooling. Yes, it will need custom fabricated mounts but if you think through it all it will work just fine. I even looked at running smaller dual coolers one on each side but by the time I did my leaf blower test and choosing to use aluminum lines I figured it was overkill. Look at different shapes if needed but don't go cheap on them. Make sure the tubes are large. Some advertise -8AN or -10 fittings but the tubes are really tiny which are the restriction so having large fittings does nothing.

I have seen more threads on cars running hot with the contour fans so I'm not sure why change the stock one. I still have the stock one on mine and have never had a reason to change it. Maybe someone will swap ou a stock setup for your Contours..?

ks
My engine bay is still bone stock with 53k on the clock. Stock cooling system is intact. I bought the Contour fans just in case. I get ahead of myself like that. Lol. On my '95; I had my coolant overflow bottle where your tranny cooler sits. I use these coolers:
Tru-Cool LPD Transmission Oil Coolers. Protect Your Investment. | Tru-Cool
I just installed the Astro the other day and got thinking about the auto again. The car is on jackstands and would be a perfect time to change my mind. I do that often anyway. I think the worst part would be finding the right converter. It seems like folks are changing them 2-3 times until they are right. Nothing like pulling the tranny several times. Decipha suggested that I install something like a 4000 stall and control the stall in my tune. The factory SN computer for an auto car has a table for that. I assume a 4r70w bolts right up in a SN?
 

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I love my 4R70 and Quick4 setup and having a LU converter is great. I don't know how it would be controlled with your setup. I wanted a more stock feel while driving so I designed my car around the 2800 stall but it could use a 4000 if I really wanted the best spoolup.
I don't know how it would bolt up into a SN95 but my guess it would or could.

ks
 

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The only thing I don't like about my cooler setup is that the lines are on the bottom. Technically air could get trapped at the top of the cooler but I couldn't get the lines run out the top and still get the cooler in a good position so I have it the way it is. Keep this in mind when locating yours. It's best to have the lines on top so air can't get trapped.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I love my 4R70 and Quick4 setup and having a LU converter is great. I don't know how it would be controlled with your setup. I wanted a more stock feel while driving so I designed my car around the 2800 stall but it could use a 4000 if I really wanted the best spoolup.
I don't know how it would bolt up into a SN95 but my guess it would or could.

ks
The '94-'95 cars had AODE trannys. Doesn't the 4r70w use the same case? The 94-95 computers have something like 300 tranny tables for the AODE. My guess is that the same computer will control the 4r70. What gears are you running out back?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
The only thing I don't like about my cooler setup is that the lines are on the bottom. Technically air could get trapped at the top of the cooler but I couldn't get the lines run out the top and still get the cooler in a good position so I have it the way it is. Keep this in mind when locating yours. It's best to have the lines on top so air can't get trapped.

ks
That makes sense. Something to ponder.
 

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I don't know that they use the same case but I think they use some of the 4R parts in a AOD when beefing them up. Dan Gilsdorf (Silver Fox) built mine and he would know. A lot people use the AOD over the 4R b/c they can be operated w/o a computer. I wanted mine to be computer controlled.

I have 3.27's out back and run a 28" tall tire. I had specific design requirements when designing my car (yes, it's designed) so the cam and turbos were designed to work around the below info which is built for torque and low RPM:
6500RPM max.
Full length 2 1/2" exhaust
Three Mufflers
2800 stall with LU conv.

My goal is to run 150 in the 1/4 and make over 900hp and it made 900 by 6200. It would make more if I rev'd it higher but we didn't need to.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I don't know that they use the same case but I think they use some of the 4R parts in a AOD when beefing them up. Dan Gilsdorf (Silver Fox) built mine and he would know. A lot people use the AOD over the 4R b/c they can be operated w/o a computer. I wanted mine to be computer controlled.

I have 3.27's out back and run a 28" tall tire. I had specific design requirements when designing my car (yes, it's designed) so the cam and turbos were designed to work around the below info which is built for torque and low RPM:
6500RPM max.
Full length 2 1/2" exhaust
Three Mufflers
2800 stall with LU conv.

My goal is to run 150 in the 1/4 and make over 900hp and it made 900 by 6200. It would make more if I rev'd it higher but we didn't need to.

ks
I was just on the Silver Fox website and I like the idea of running an AOD. I like to keep it simple. I'd discuss it with him first though.
I have the factory 3.08 gears with 26" tires. I like how a 28" fills out the fenderwells though. My car will have a HCI 5.0 which would be sluggish with 28" tires when out of boost. Your car is a beauty. I'd kill myself with that much hp.
 
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