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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry this is so long but any help would be great if anyone has any ideas

Playing in garage today and car is really pissing me off. Installed the Pro-M in January (Coil Plug option) and have not been able to get consistent starts, idle or drive-ability.

I have talked to Chris several times and he is always great. He has said we need to set up a time for him to connect to my computer while the car is running to see what is going on...problem is I never have time with work etc.. so while I had some time this weekend I have been playing around with tune, etc.

Simple set up nothing exotic-
302ci, Y-Heads, Lunati Cam 51014, HS2 intake, Powerdyne BD11a, 42# injectors, 80MAF, Aeromotive Fuel system (Aeromotive baffled tank w/ Eliminator in tank pump) Aeromotive pump controller, Coil Plug, stock distributor, Wide band option, battery in trunk 1ga welding cable grounded to block (ECM ground there as well)

MAF transfer entered, wide bands set up, fuel injector slopes entered

Cold start-
Cranks 2-3 seconds and runs. Idle surges 700-1200 for 45 to 60 seconds, give it gas for a few seconds and clears up. Once in closed loop idles pretty smooth at 950. This is the lowest idle I can achieve as when the electric fan kicks on it stalls the car at anything lower.

Hot start-
120f and higher car cranks for 8-10 seconds before it fires, cranks strong but won't catch. Will start up and die 3-4 times before stays running. Now if I give it gas it will stay running. I am assuming the car is flooded on start? I have tried changing fuel on start up by removing some based on ECT, I have tried removing timing on cranking....nothing helps?

Driving car as soon as it goes into 1st or reverse and I begin to let the clutch out it will stall immediately. I need to keep rpm above 1000 or it stalls instantly. Seems once there is a load on engine the ECM doesn't see it and doesn't compensate? When driving on road and coming to a stop the rpm's drop to below 500 and car stalls unless I give it gas while braking....does not make for an enjoyable ride. If car is idling and you snap the throttle to 2500+ rpm's will fall below 500 and stall as well.

Was told old fuel system wasn't adequate so I installed full Aeromotive...did not help

Told to replace IAC with new from Ford....did not help

Any ideas? Car ran better with A9L and FMU, and also had a PMS on it for years and was ok. System has definitely not been plug and play for me.

If anyone can think of anything to try please let me know....I will be calling Chris this week to see if he has time to dial in. Thanks.
 

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Stalling so readily sounds like a vacuum leak.

If Pro-M will shut off fuel injectors while cranking at WOT (and it probably does but I don't know for certain) then you can verify too much fuel during hot cranking by cranking for 3 seconds normally, then stop cranking, floor the gas pedal, and crank again. That will clear the flood and it will fire up in a second or two.

If that doesn't help at all either you don't have a WOT flood clear feature enabled, something is wrong with the TPS, or it's actually not getting enough fuel.

Validate the TPS while you're in there anyway because a TPS problem can give you the other issues you're having too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Stalling so readily sounds like a vacuum leak.

I have replaced every vacuum hose and checked all connections countless times but I will go through all again.

If Pro-M will shut off fuel injectors while cranking at WOT (and it probably does but I don't know for certain) then you can verify too much fuel during hot cranking by cranking for 3 seconds normally, then stop cranking, floor the gas pedal, and crank again. That will clear the flood and it will fire up in a second or two.

I will try that

If that doesn't help at all either you don't have a WOT flood clear feature enabled, something is wrong with the TPS, or it's actually not getting enough fuel.

TPS reads .92v with key on and varies accordingly with throttle

Validate the TPS while you're in there anyway because a TPS problem can give you the other issues you're having too.
I will thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Tps .9180v idle 4.335v wot

I let car sit for 30min from my frustrating drive, ECT was 150f and started right up? However during drive earlier went to get gas and was troublesome to start after filling up.

Just sprayed starting fluid around intake and hoses no change in idle at all

Volts at idle 14.1
Volts at idle with fan running 13.8
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Another thing I notice is when I hit throttle in neutral and rev above 3000 the AFR goes dead lean 22.1 for a split second? This is when sometimes it wants to stall out as rpms drop to below 500....
 

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Incorrect vacuum line routing is a very common problem. Your intake manifold should have a few separate sources for vacuum supply. One of them should be designated to components relevant to your management system only. Those components are:
Fuel pressure regulator Boost Bypass valve (if used) MAP sensor (if used) Boost pressure gauge (if used).
Do not allow these components to share a vacuum circuit with any other components other than the ones listed.

The second one should be plumbed to your vacuum accessories such as your brake booster, and heater controls. This is also the circuit you would use for your vacuum source for the EVAP control solenoid. Run a large hose from this intake port to your vacuum tree. Run another large hose from the vacuum tree to the brake booster. There should be a hose from the vacuum tree to a vacuum check valve. On the other side of the check valve would be the vacuum reservoir ball, and the heater controls. Exactly the way it was when it was stock. You should also have a hose from the vacuum tree to the EVAP solenoid.

A third vacuum port on the intake should be connected to the PCV valve only. Do not connect the PCV valve to the vacuum tree. With forced induction, there will need to be a check valve in this circuit to prevent boost pressure from entering the crankcase. You MUST install an in-line check valve if you are using forced induction. The direction of flow needs to be toward the intake of course. Mcmaster-Carr (mcmaster.com) part number 7775K12 works well for this. You'll also need a pair of hose barbs, since the ends of the check valve are ¼ NPT. McMaster's part number is 5346K18. This is a pack of ten barbs, but will cost you less than buying two at the local hardware store. Be sure to use good quality hose, especially for the PCV circuit. Fuel line works best for the PCV system. Regular vacuum line with soften and swell from contact with engine oil, causing loose connections and vacuum leaks.

A smoke test is the only way to check for vacuum leaks because its highly effective. Looking and checking is not the best method.
 

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Q) MAF transfer entered, wide bands set up, fuel injector slopes entered
A) Who entered the data into your EMS?

Q) Cold start-
Cranks 2-3 seconds and runs. Idle surges 700-1200 for 45 to 60 seconds, give it gas for a few seconds and clears up. Once in closed loop idles pretty smooth at 950. This is the lowest idle I can achieve as when the electric fan kicks on it stalls the car at anything lower.
A) Check for vacuum leaks for the surging and is your base idle setup correct. Engine is going to want to idle based on your camshaft design. Don't set it up for 750 rpms when it actually needs to be 950 rpms.

Q) Hot start-
120f and higher car cranks for 8-10 seconds before it fires, cranks strong but won't catch. Will start up and die 3-4 times before stays running. Now if I give it gas it will stay running. I am assuming the car is flooded on start? I have tried changing fuel on start up by removing some based on ECT, I have tried removing timing on cranking....nothing helps?
A) Hopefully you saved your calibration file you got from Chris. Re-install your old calibration or change back to your original values. You shouldn't have to change these values with your setup.

Q) Driving car as soon as it goes into 1st or reverse and I begin to let the clutch out it will stall immediately. I need to keep rpm above 1000 or it stalls instantly. Seems once there is a load on engine the ECM doesn't see it and doesn't compensate? When driving on road and coming to a stop the rpm's drop to below 500 and car stalls unless I give it gas while braking....does not make for an enjoyable ride. If car is idling and you snap the throttle to 2500+ rpm's will fall below 500 and stall as well.
A) Vacuum leak or your setup wasn't done correctly.

Q) Was told old fuel system wasn't adequate so I installed full Aeromotive...did not help.
A) It was one problem that wasn't correct but from the sound of things you have other things going on.

Q) Told to replace IAC with new from Ford....did not help
A) Did you set your idle correctly or what steps did you take to perform a Base Idle reset.

Q) Any ideas? Car ran better with A9L and FMU, and also had a PMS on it for years and was ok. System has definitely not been plug and play for me.
A) Car will run 10x better than the stuff you took out. I understand it's easier to blame the EMS but your problems are either incorrect setup or mechanical issues (vacuum leak).

Q) If anyone can think of anything to try please let me know.
A) I would be surprised if Chris didn't agree with my assessment above. Your problems aren't EMS related, it's setup related and the stuff you tried to do wasn't meant to make it better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Q) MAF transfer entered, wide bands set up, fuel injector slopes entered
A) Who entered the data into your EMS?
I did, File was sent to Chris to check

Q) Cold start-
Cranks 2-3 seconds and runs. Idle surges 700-1200 for 45 to 60 seconds, give it gas for a few seconds and clears up. Once in closed loop idles pretty smooth at 950. This is the lowest idle I can achieve as when the electric fan kicks on it stalls the car at anything lower.
A) Check for vacuum leaks for the surging and is your base idle setup correct. Engine is going to want to idle based on your camshaft design. Don't set it up for 750 rpms when it actually needs to be 950 rpms.
Mild camshaft, idle was set with IAC disconnected, value entered in tune as per video

Q) Hot start-
120f and higher car cranks for 8-10 seconds before it fires, cranks strong but won't catch. Will start up and die 3-4 times before stays running. Now if I give it gas it will stay running. I am assuming the car is flooded on start? I have tried changing fuel on start up by removing some based on ECT, I have tried removing timing on cranking....nothing helps?
A) Hopefully you saved your calibration file you got from Chris. Re-install your old calibration or change back to your original values. You shouldn't have to change these values with your setup.
Correct calibration loaded

Q) Driving car as soon as it goes into 1st or reverse and I begin to let the clutch out it will stall immediately. I need to keep rpm above 1000 or it stalls instantly. Seems once there is a load on engine the ECM doesn't see it and doesn't compensate? When driving on road and coming to a stop the rpm's drop to below 500 and car stalls unless I give it gas while braking....does not make for an enjoyable ride. If car is idling and you snap the throttle to 2500+ rpm's will fall below 500 and stall as well.
A) Vacuum leak or your setup wasn't done correctly.
I will disconnect vacuum accessories to see if I can locate issue?

Q) Was told old fuel system wasn't adequate so I installed full Aeromotive...did not help.
A) It was one problem that wasn't correct but from the sound of things you have other things going on.

Q) Told to replace IAC with new from Ford....did not help
A) Did you set your idle correctly or what steps did you take to perform a Base Idle reset.
Set as per video

Q) Any ideas? Car ran better with A9L and FMU, and also had a PMS on it for years and was ok. System has definitely not been plug and play for me.
A) Car will run 10x better than the stuff you took out. I understand it's easier to blame the EMS but your problems are either incorrect setup or mechanical issues (vacuum leak).
Definitely not blaming the EMS, maybe was hoping for the miracle cure when purchased as I thought the issues I had before with PMS would be corrected. Surging idle, rough starts etc. But obvious I have another issue

Q) If anyone can think of anything to try please let me know.
A) I would be surprised if Chris didn't agree with my assessment above. Your problems aren't EMS related, it's setup related and the stuff you tried to do wasn't meant to make it better.
Agree
Vacuum lines are plumbed correctly I believe...
4 ports on the Systemax2
1 large port connected to PCV and yes it has check valve as shown in video
1 large port connected to vacuum tree left port
1 small port connected to FPR
1 small port connected to Boost Bypass Valve

Vacuum Tree-
Far right port connected to Brake Booster
2nd port from left connected to check valve, check valve to reservoir and into car
3rd port capped off

All vacuum lines in engine compartment are fuel line
Thanks for the reply
 

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Have a smoke machine test done.
Incredible how an air leak can absolutely piss an EFI car off.
I've personally found vacuum leaks on otherwise good looking line/ elbows.

You can make your own smoke machine. Or at this point paying a shop for this one diagnosis is going to be a drop in the bucket.

Do that, and you take away the vacuum leak option.
 

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You said the following above: Car ran better with A9L and FMU, and also had a PMS on it for years and was ok

Definitely not blaming the EMS, maybe was hoping for the miracle cure when purchased as I thought the issues I had before with PMS would be corrected. Surging idle, rough starts etc. But obvious I have another issue

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you had issues with your last setup and now the Pro-M EMS, is this correct? The changes you made to your tune, return them back to normal. Get a smoke test as this will help determine if you have vacuum leaks. You could have vacuum leaks in other places like at your injectors but you'll never know without getting a smoke test.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Car never ran good but was manageable. Typical surging RPM and low RPM bucking. Symptoms are much more noticeable with Pro-m system and I'm sure it is due to the fact it is a much better/faster processor. I will check with smoke and let you know, thanks.
 

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Can you post (2-3) photos of your engine bay from different angles (front, right and left side)?
 

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There is nothing out of the ordinary with your setup. You simply don't have the correct base idle set, vacuum leak or both conditions. Calling Chris will be the easiest thing to do in this case. I could walk you thru it but it would take longer. Chris has made himself available after-hours (Mon-Fri) for customers, so it may be possible to work something out with him because of your work hours.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Mike. I disconnected vacuum lines today and plugged off individually and no change at all. I will make a smoke tester this week and try that as well. I followed the base idle as shown in the videos but will go through it again. I will give Chris a call and try to get him to dial in. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I checked that a couple times and made sure all were phased properly so I would say yes. I will triple check again to make sure thanks
 

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Just another Internet guess.

When I had a powerdyne bd11, I started out with a C&L 76mm with a 42# sample tube.
What kind of 80maf are you using? Did you send it in for a transfer file?
Can't tell you how much I like my slot maf. No more "clocking" and witchcraft black magic.
With that said, have you tried rotating your MAF while the car is running?
Also what kind of conversion plug are you using, or is the 80maf a flat 4?

Also make sure that plastic 1" Bosh by pass valve is working. That can cause a blower car to surge anyways.
Also make sure the fuel pressure regulator is functional. Both with vacuum and off vacuum. Then verify it rises 1:1.

Past that sorry man, I'm stumped.
Did you get an appointment made for a smoke machine? The difference between the DIY's and my Snap-on are 3.
Cloud of smoke
UV light detectable
Smells strong

Not that the DIY machines won't work. But the strong odor makes my nose guide my black light to find pin holes.

EFI cars hate unmetered air.
 

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Boost pressure tester works better than a smoke machine. Your intake should hold pressure just like a tire does. Soapy water finds leaks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Just another Internet guess.

When I had a powerdyne bd11, I started out with a C&L 76mm with a 42# sample tube.
What kind of 80maf are you using? Did you send it in for a transfer file?
Can't tell you how much I like my slot maf. No more "clocking" and witchcraft black magic.
With that said, have you tried rotating your MAF while the car is running?
Also what kind of conversion plug are you using, or is the 80maf a flat 4?

Also make sure that plastic 1" Bosh by pass valve is working. That can cause a blower car to surge anyways.
Also make sure the fuel pressure regulator is functional. Both with vacuum and off vacuum. Then verify it rises 1:1.

Past that sorry man, I'm stumped.
Did you get an appointment made for a smoke machine? The difference between the DIY's and my Snap-on are 3.
Cloud of smoke
UV light detectable
Smells strong

Not that the DIY machines won't work. But the strong odor makes my nose guide my black light to find pin holes.

EFI cars hate unmetered air.
I am running a Pro-M 80mm with the standard 4 wire hookup. It is fender mount with an Anderson power pipe. I have not tried clocking the meter as I thought it didn't matter on this style but I will give it a try?

I disconnected the bypass valve to see if any difference at idle and no, still surges when cold.

I made my own smoke machine and used smokey's (smoke bombs) that I use to test ductwork for air leaks. Made a canister out of 3" copper with an air source inlet and the smoke outlet. Nothing found at all.

I took 2 videos of the car that I will try to get uploaded

Thanks
 
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