[Jim Tunstell]

Well the day finally came to fire up the car. Everything went fine considering I also did some major changes to the oil cooling system and added an Accusump to the car. I did run into one problem with the wideband controller. I'm running the innovate DLG-1 in my car which I installed around 3 years ago. When I made the changes to the Analog output it's supposed to sync the DLG-1 settings with the LC-2 but it wasn't so I got a DTC error code. I had to disconnect the LC-2 from the DLG-1 plug it directly into my laptop and programed it. Then the DTC went away. I did find the timing was off so I got that set. The rest of the setup went fine. I still need to take the car on a test drive to see how it runs.

The one thing I did notice is the factory temp gauge is reading really high. When I look at the temp on the Pro-M it's reading normal around 190 but the gauge in the car is reading a notch above the halfway. If I look at my autometer gauge its reading about 193. Normally before the Pro-M system the car would stay around middle of the gauge when sitting idling. I'm guessing the Pro-M is reading the same sensor as the temp gauge.

Peter92lx,

The Pro-M EFI reads temperature (for ECM) from the ECT sensor in the heater tube located near the thermostat housing (passenger side). The dash temp gauge reads from the sensor located on the driver's side front of the lower intake manifold. The ECT sensor in the heater tube is the one that matters the most.

V/r, Jim T

 

[Peter92lx]

Peter92lx,

The Pro-M EFI reads temperature (for ECM) from the ECT sensor in the heater tube located near the thermostat housing (passenger side). The dash temp gauge reads from the sensor located on the driver's side front of the lower intake manifold. The ECT sensor in the heater tube is the one that matters the most.

V/r, Jim T

Thanks for the info after I posted it I realized that night I as wrong.

I got the car out for it's first drive. I got the gear ratio and stuff right the car knew what gears it was in and the speed the ECM saw was the same my GPS was reading so that was nice. I figured it was going to be off. The car did stall a few times when coming to stop when I coasted the car out of second and then came to a stop. It started to figure it out after a few times. If down shifted to a stop it would be fine. The car runs smooth and idles really nice. The idle is much smoother then I ever had been. Things that would make the car stall with the old EFI system doesn't effect this system. The car seems much happier and running smoother.

The only issue I noticed that I have to look into was under full throttle it sounded like the car was knocking. It was very noticeable the first time. I thought it was due to low gas in the tank so I filled it up and did a couple more pulls and it still did it but it seem to do it less each time. Not sure if that is normal and the ECM is learning or if it's a problem. I've never heard the car do it before. I also checked the DTC and none are logged. I tried to rev the engine in neutral but didn't hear anything. It's definitely something that happens under heavy load.

 

[Jim Tunstell]

So I finally decided to get the Pro-M EFI system for my car. I really wanted to install this system in my car a few years ago but didn't go this route. I decided at the time to user an A9L with a quarterhorse chip to tune the car. The main reason I went this route was due to smog. I wanted a system that could still use the smog equipment making it easier to pass a smog test. My plan was to make the car street legal so I could drive it to autocross events that were about 8 miles from my house so I wouldn't need a truck and trailer. Now fast forward to this year and the autocross venue is gone for good and the only places I have to race are anywhere from 70-200 miles away. So now I own a truck and a trailer for the car that I've been using all year to go racing. Now the only street driving I'm doing is from my driveway into the back of the trailer. It got me thinking why I'm I using an outdated system when I could use the one I wanted all along. I've reached a point where I don't care if it passes smog or not.

Don't get me wrong the quarterhorse was fine. I got it tuned by someone that knew what they were doing and it worked pretty good. I did have some bucking issues with the car and sometimes it would stall and not want to start and if it did it was very unhappy. But it worked and the car ran so it was good enough while I raced this season and worked on the teething issues I had with the suspension, brakes and motor.

I'm hoping to get the system in the car before my last event in Dec 4-5 to test it out. I wouldn't seeing how the traction control works with this system. I think it might help me with corner exit on slow speed corners. I didn't go with the crank trigger or coil on plug but I'm thinking about doing the crank trigger. I've read a few threads on the crank trigger but there doesn't seem to be much info about how well it works.

If anyone has more feed back on the crank trigger kit let me know. Also if anyone has tips on installing it that would be helpful. I think i have watch every install video I can find on the system.

Peter92lx,
I would get the crank trigger! My reasoning is (when properly set up) the crank trigger ensures extremely accurate timing. The crank trigger alone may stop knocking and pinging. I upgraded to the supplemental harness kit and crank trigger by purchasing a brand knew harness with the crank trigger kit installed in the new harness by Pro-M Racing. It costs me around $1500.00 but it was money well spent because I didn't have to deal with cutting up my original harness for the upgrade. I just removed the old harness and installed the new harness. The old harness is now stashed away as a spare. This was a more reliable way to upgrade my harness instead of moving pins around in the 1st generation Pro-M harness connectors. My car runs and drives like a current model new car compared to the way it ran with the EEC-4 setup. The crank trigger is the way to go! If you get the crank trigger, be aware of differences in oil pans that may affect your installation.

V/r, Jim T

 

[fasterthangas]

Peter92lx,
I would get the crank trigger! My reasoning is (when properly set up) the crank trigger ensures extremely accurate timing. The crank trigger alone may stop knocking and pinging. I upgraded to the supplemental harness kit and crank trigger by purchasing a brand knew harness with the crank trigger kit installed in the new harness by Pro-M Racing. It costs me around $1500.00 but it was money well spent because I didn't have to deal with cutting up my original harness for the upgrade. I just removed the old harness and installed the new harness. The old harness is now stashed away as a spare. This was a more reliable way to upgrade my harness instead of moving pins around in the 1st generation Pro-M harness connectors. My car runs and drives like a current model new car compared to the way it ran with the EEC-4 setup. The crank trigger is the way to go! If you get the crank trigger, be aware of differences in oil pans that may affect your installation.

V/r, Jim T

Forgive me for the intrusion but I fail to see why the root cause isn't addressed first before throwing another $1500 at the ProM. Folks have been using distributors with internal PIP's for decades with positive results and now a crank trigger is needed to obtain a good running engine? If the car is knocking under load; it's most likely timing or fuel. Maybe both?
At what load % is the engine knocking?
Has the OP tried pulling timing at that load? Have you added fuel at that load?

As for Jim's comment about the EEC-4; there's absolutely nothing wrong with it to begin with and thousands have been tuned successfully. If a car runs poorly with the factory computer after tuning; then there's 2 possibilities. The first is poor tuning and second is an issue with the car itself.

Maybe I missed something but this is how I see it.

 

[Peter92lx]

Peter92lx,
I would get the crank trigger! My reasoning is (when properly set up) the crank trigger ensures extremely accurate timing. The crank trigger alone may stop knocking and pinging. I upgraded to the supplemental harness kit and crank trigger by purchasing a brand knew harness with the crank trigger kit installed in the new harness by Pro-M Racing. It costs me around $1500.00 but it was money well spent because I didn't have to deal with cutting up my original harness for the upgrade. I just removed the old harness and installed the new harness. The old harness is now stashed away as a spare. This was a more reliable way to upgrade my harness instead of moving pins around in the 1st generation Pro-M harness connectors. My car runs and drives like a current model new car compared to the way it ran with the EEC-4 setup. The crank trigger is the way to go! If you get the crank trigger, be aware of differences in oil pans that may affect your installation.

V/r, Jim T

It might solve the problem but right now I think it's best to pull some spark advance from the car first or check to make sure the car isn't running lean at WOT. I honestly was just surprised it was doing it since it had never happened before with the old EFI system. The plan is to add flex fuel, fuel pressure sensor, COP and crank trigger later in the year. I just wanted to get the car running in the base Pro-M system then start adding the bells and whistles later. The nice thing is I already have the updated harness so adding it will be easier from what I understand.

Forgive me for the intrusion but I fail to see why the root cause isn't addressed first before throwing another $1500 at the ProM. Folks have been using distributors with internal PIP's for decades with positive results and now a crank trigger is needed to obtain a good running engine? If the car is knocking under load; it's most likely timing or fuel. Maybe both?

Not an intrusion you are right it could be either of the things you mentioned. I was mainly wondering if this system will adapt to it and make changes to keep it from happening or if it's something I will need to adjust. I was also wondering if people have seen this before and knew of something I should check.

At what load % is the engine knocking?
Has the OP tried pulling timing at that load? Have you added fuel at that load?

It was under WOT when it happened when it started to get into the 3-4000 RPM range. Honestly I'm just beginning to look into the drive was short just to make sure the ECM was seeing the gears properly and the correct MPH. I honestly hadn't made any changes to the system to try and solve the problem. It's hard I don't get to drive the car much on the street since it doesn't have tags on it. It's insured but not registered so my drives are quick and to the point. I might need to take it to my friends shop and get it on the dyno to make adjustments.

I'm looking at how to pull spark advance from the system now plus contact Chris to see if he has some suggestions.

 

[fasterthangas]

It might solve the problem but right now I think it's best to pull some spark advance from the car first or check to make sure the car isn't running lean at WOT. I honestly was just surprised it was doing it since it had never happened before with the old EFI system. The plan is to add flex fuel, fuel pressure sensor, COP and crank trigger later in the year. I just wanted to get the car running in the base Pro-M system then start adding the bells and whistles later. The nice thing is I already have the updated harness so adding it will be easier from what I understand.



Not an intrusion you are right it could be either of the things you mentioned. I was mainly wondering if this system will adapt to it and make changes to keep it from happening or if it's something I will need to adjust. I was also wondering if people have seen this before and knew of something I should check.



It was under WOT when it happened when it started to get into the 3-4000 RPM range. Honestly I'm just beginning to look into the drive was short just to make sure the ECM was seeing the gears properly and the correct MPH. I honestly hadn't made any changes to the system to try and solve the problem. It's hard I don't get to drive the car much on the street since it doesn't have tags on it. It's insured but not registered so my drives are quick and to the point. I might need to take it to my friends shop and get it on the dyno to make adjustments.

I'm looking at how to pull spark advance from the system now plus contact Chris to see if he has some suggestions.

Is the engine pinging or knocking? Does it do it on the level or going up a grade?

 

[Jim Tunstell]

Forgive me for the intrusion but I fail to see why the root cause isn't addressed first before throwing another $1500 at the ProM. Folks have been using distributors with internal PIP's for decades with positive results and now a crank trigger is needed to obtain a good running engine? If the car is knocking under load; it's most likely timing or fuel. Maybe both?
At what load % is the engine knocking?
Has the OP tried pulling timing at that load? Have you added fuel at that load?

As for Jim's comment about the EEC-4; there's absolutely nothing wrong with it to begin with and thousands have been tuned successfully. If a car runs poorly with the factory computer after tuning; then there's 2 possibilities. The first is poor tuning and second is an issue with the car itself.

Maybe I missed something but this is how I see it.

Faster,

This is only a suggestion. I only gave my view because it worked for me (perfectly) and it gave me a spare harness and connectors and I now have new car reliability with my 5.0's engine control system. EEC-IV was great for it's day, but using current technology on my 30 year old mustang removes many weak points of the old 5.0 (distributor shutter wheel, single coil, TFI module, ignition system in general). I noticed my later model Fords, (2001 Excursion, 2005 and 2008 Grand Marquis', 2016 Ford Fusion (all of which I bought new and still own), have NEVER had any ignition system problems. I just spent $5800.00 on a new Ford Racing M-6009-460-Boss 351W stroker short block. I thought it would be best to give that new engine the best Pro-M has to offer rather than screw around with an older Pro-M harness. However, Faster, I respect your point of view.

V/r, Jim T

 

[fasterthangas]

Faster,

This is only a suggestion. I only gave my view because it worked for me (perfectly) and it gave me a spare harness and connectors and I now have new car reliability with my 5.0's engine control system. EEC-IV was great for it's day, but using current technology on my 30 year old mustang removes many weak points of the old 5.0 (distributor shutter wheel, single coil, TFI module, ignition system in general). I noticed my later model Fords, (2001 Excursion, 2005 and 2008 Grand Marquis', 2016 Ford Fusion (all of which I bought new and still own), have NEVER had any ignition system problems. I just spent $5800.00 on a new Ford Racing M-6009-460-Boss 351W stroker short block. I thought it would be best to give that new engine the best Pro-M has to offer rather than screw around with an older Pro-M harness. However, Faster, I respect your point of view.

V/r, Jim T

I hear what your saying and new is always nice. I've gone to a stand alone system myself but mainly for the added options such as launch control, anti lag and such. The 30 year old ignition you refer to is still an excellent system with excellent reliability. I just want to point that out. I've never had a lick of trouble with TFI but my cars are 94-95 models with the remote module which can be easily accomplished on an older model. It's not all gloom and doom when using the original ignition and computer. This is something I see mentioned a lot when comparing newer systems and justifying their prices. It's a personal choice that I completely respect but I don't think it's fair to undermind the original equipment. Heck; there's many vehicles still running carburetors and conventional ignitions designed decades ago. Championship race cars to boot.
I completely agree with your decision to use new parts on your new build. That's the great thing about starting a new project. I'd love to have that short block in my car!

 

[Peter92lx]

Is the engine pinging or knocking? Does it do it on the level or going up a grade?

Its knocking from what I can tell. The car was it down hill and up a grade. I also only had 3 gallons of gas in the car at first then I filled it up to make sure the car wasn't starving for gas but it still did it. I can only get 91 octane at the pump so I would have to make that work.

 

[fasterthangas]

Its knocking from what I can tell. The car was it down hill and up a grade. I also only had 3 gallons of gas in the car at first then I filled it up to make sure the car wasn't starving for gas but it still did it. I can only get 91 octane at the pump so I would have to make that work.

I'm stuck with 91 octane also and it's crap. I've been through a lot of detonation with various builds due to poor fuel. Is this build new and what is the compression ratio?

 

[Peter92lx]

I'm stuck with 91 octane also and it's crap. I've been through a lot of detonation with various builds due to poor fuel. Is this build new and what is the compression ratio?

The motor isn't really new but it has around 1500 miles on it. I have a about 100 autocross runs and 3 hours of track time on it. The compression ratio is low only 10:1 since I wanted the car to be able to run on pump gas to make it easy.

 

[fasterthangas]

The motor isn't really new but it has around 1500 miles on it. I have a about 100 autocross runs and 3 hours of track time on it. The compression ratio is low only 10:1 since I wanted the car to be able to run on pump gas to make it easy.

10:1 should be fine depending on cylinder pressure, plug temperature and camshaft. On one of my builds; I had high cylinder pressure and a cam that didn't bleed enough off. 10:1 seems to be the max for me with our fuel.

 

[Jim Tunstell]

Peter92lx,
Let me apologize in advance because what I am about to suggest is going to sound weird. But hear me out on this one...Before you do anything else, you may want to check to make sure the timing marks on your balancer are accurate. You may also want to use a degree wheel and piston stop to make sure your timing pointer actually lines up properly with your crank damper timing marks. There are companies that make piston stops that install in your #1 spark plug hole (so you don't have to disassemble your engine. When I put my engine together, I degreed my cam and had to find 0 degrees top dead center and 10 degrees BTC on the compression stroke and discovered that true 10 degrees BTDC was not accurately reflected on the balancer timing marks (it was about 5 degrees off, 10 degrees on the balancer was 15 degrees on the degree wheel). I had to get an adjustable timing pointer to correct it. This may not be your problem, but I would check anyway if you haven't already. Hopefully, I am wrong about this in your case. I hope you get your issue solved.

V/r, Jim T

 

[32Vpwr]

verify crank timing matches commanded ecm timing.

 

[Peter92lx]

verify crank timing matches commanded ecm timing.

That's a good idea at least I would know the timing marks are correct. Thanks you gave me another way to verify it. Are you running a Pro-M system in your car?

 

[32Vpwr]

no, but the principles are universal

 

[Peter92lx]

Peter92lx,
Let me apologize in advance because what I am about to suggest is going to sound weird. But hear me out on this one...Before you do anything else, you may want to check to make sure the timing marks on your balancer are accurate. You may also want to use a degree wheel and piston stop to make sure your timing pointer actually lines up properly with your crank damper timing marks. There are companies that make piston stops that install in your #1 spark plug hole (so you don't have to disassemble your engine. When I put my engine together, I degreed my cam and had to find 0 degrees top dead center and 10 degrees BTC on the compression stroke and discovered that true 10 degrees BTDC was not accurately reflected on the balancer timing marks (it was about 5 degrees off, 10 degrees on the balancer was 15 degrees on the degree wheel). I had to get an adjustable timing pointer to correct it. This may not be your problem, but I would check anyway if you haven't already. Hopefully, I am wrong about this in your case. I hope you get your issue solved.

V/r, Jim T

That's something else I can check to verify. I'm going to try what 32Vpwr recommended tomorrow. I just have to dig through the software to see if I can find a spark table or something that will show the current timing being used. If you pull the spout connector it should force the car to 10 degrees BTC. Then look under variables they have run spark and base spark maybe they will tell me what it's running at. I would be surprised if the software doesn't have a place where its displayed. But if it did you would think it would be in the manual.

 

[93Stang5oh]

Then look under variables they have run spark and base spark maybe they will tell me what it's running at. I would be surprised if the software doesn't have a place where its displayed. But if it did you would think it would be in the manual.

You may want to review this thread. It has some good videos and talks about setting up variable lists for troubleshooting.

Pro-M EFI (Tips & General Info)

Here is the first of three videos on "How to setup a Variable List" and a few other tips. Once you know how the magic trick is done, it's easy. https://youtube.com/watch?v=Lop-vI0Fe_Q

www.corral.net

 

[kjb302ho]

Forgive me for the intrusion but I fail to see why the root cause isn't addressed first before throwing another $1500 at the ProM. Folks have been using distributors with internal PIP's for decades with positive results and now a crank trigger is needed to obtain a good running engine? If the car is knocking under load; it's most likely timing or fuel. Maybe both?
At what load % is the engine knocking?
Has the OP tried pulling timing at that load? Have you added fuel at that load?

As for Jim's comment about the EEC-4; there's absolutely nothing wrong with it to begin with and thousands have been tuned successfully. If a car runs poorly with the factory computer after tuning; then there's 2 possibilities. The first is poor tuning and second is an issue with the car itself.

Maybe I missed something but this is how I see it.

The crank trigger set up and the supplemental harness together aren't $1500. The supplemental harness is $350 and the crank trigger kit is $500.

If you buy a new kit now, the supplemental harness is built in to it. the crank trigger is still separate. I did notice a nice feel when i added the crank trigger. smoother, better drivability. I was really hesitant because of the price but installation was cake. And not having to space out all the brackets and pulleys made it a lot easier.

Also other standalone systems can use it as well. So what ever system you are going with, keep this crank trigger in mind.

 

[petmotel]

I don't know if it was mentioned, but the TFI is not used in a Pro-M EFI system. The remote mounted TFI on a '94-'95 can be removed as it is on my car. Stock system runs my solid lifter 363 to well past 7K without a miss in sight. Timing doesn't wander about with the Pro-M either, from what I've read, the computer averages the timing impulses and gives timing accuracy equivalent to a crank sensor. That's confirmed by what I see when I run the engine up and down with the timing light,

With a 3.73 rear and a .5 ratio 6th gear in my track day car, I didn't like how it sounded on the highway at 70-80 MPH in 6th, but that's an unreasonable ask of the engine combination given the cam specs and the engine load/engine speed. It'd probably be fine at 120+

Jay