[Killer95GT302]

All agreement aside that things were too spicy for that fuel, another thing you might consider is how long the power feed wire is going to your pump. High flow pumps eat 20-25 amps, 10 awg might be enough to get you by in most circumstances, but when you need every last big of that pump, it might fall short.

The longer (and also hotter) the wire, the less amps it can support. You might consider stepping up the wire for it. You can reference a current flow chart to see whats right

 

[Macd7919]

All agreement aside that things were too spicy for that fuel, another thing you might consider is how long the power feed wire is going to your pump. High flow pumps eat 20-25 amps, 10 awg might be enough to get you by in most circumstances, but when you need every last big of that pump, it might fall short.

The longer (and also hotter) the wire, the less amps it can support. You might consider stepping up the wire for it. You can reference a current flow chart to see whats right

Yes, I was careful with power feed connection to the pump. I used to be an install manager at a high end audio shop so I understand the implications of too small power wire. I used a 10ga wire that is OFC, not tinned copper, which should hold the draw fine (rated to a max of 35A at 16ft) and grounded the pump to the chassis. But yes, I agree, the power feed to the pump is important. The rest of the feed to the pump consists of a quality 40A relay and a direct connection from a 40A circuit breaker to the battery. I agree that 17psi is too hot of a tune, but, it also seems for the setup that we were at it wouldn't be to the point of a HG failure at high 10's AFR (before the pump started to drop) and 12 deg timing. Detonation, potentially, but a blown HG seems extreme and still doesn't explain the big drop in fuel pressure. I'm wondering if this Holley pump isn't really what they claim it is.....

 

[Killer95GT302]

I think the conclusion to draw is detonation blew the gasket, not the boost. The pump doesn't appear to have supported what you needed, it went slightly lean, and in that narrow of a margin of error for that particular pull you had a number of things working against you which caused it to detonate and blow the gasket (hopefully nothing else).

1. Highish IATs (115-120)
2. 17lbs of boost
3. 92 pump fuel

Going 12:1 AFR was the straw that broke the camels back on that run - happened likely in the range you are making peak torque.

That's my opinion anyways

 

[Macd7919]

I think the conclusion to draw is detonation blew the gasket, not the boost. The pump doesn't appear to have supported what you needed, it went slightly lean, and in that narrow of a margin of error for that particular pull you had a number of things working against you which caused it to detonate and blow the gasket (hopefully nothing else).

1. Highish IATs (115-120)
2. 17lbs of boost
3. 92 pump fuel

Going 12:1 AFR was the straw that broke the camels back on that run - happened likely in the range you are making peak torque.

That's my opinion anyways

To me, this is also pointing to a pump issue, which is unfortunate as they claim that pump is good for 1200hp on an NA application, that should have easily supported a boosted application at say 800 crank hp. To be honest, this is the third thing that's taken a dump on me from Holley on this build. ECU died after not being plugged in for 3mo. Installed a new ECU and the car fired right up. Then my first dual sync died on me after 150mi and an hour into the original tuning session last week while cruise tuning. Replaced that and car fired right up, now, it would seem, the pump I got from them doesn't truly live up to the advertised flow volumes, which they say is: "Supports up to 1200 EFI or 1450 Carb HP (@ 60 PSI at 13.5 Volts / 17 AMP Draw) ". To top the day off I had rented a uhaul car trailer to tow the car to the tuner 1.5hrs away. Uhaul neglected to properly tighten the receiver and when I went to load the car, the trailer came off the ball and smashed my tailgate. Uhaul has accepted all fault for it. So then, since it was nice out, I decided to drive the car to the tuner since the cruise tune had already been completed the weekend prior before the distributor crapped out and I didn't trust the trailer (this was at 6AM the day of the tune). Then this happened so I ended up paying some guy from the welding shop next door $360 to tow the car back to my house with his low deck. Cherry on top was the car picked up a nail in the parking lot and had a flat tire. So, I'm a bit flustered with this car. Every time I turn around it's been something and now I'm doing headgaskets on a build that took me 3+ mo to get done working on it one or two days a week. Anyways, just venting a bit. What I'm gathering from this is the Holley pump is probably garbage and I should be looking at an upgraded pump. I still find it odd that the pump dropped off that quickly though instead of a gradual decline or a complete failure. Just seems like if it was hitting 62psi, and things were good on AFR, we would have seen a gradual lean condition and not something that went from fat to HG blowing territory in just over 1 with 15-20psi pressure drop that quickly.

 

[96pushrod]

There any sort of markings on the pump that come with the Holley hanger? I’m assuming it’s a walbro made unit?

 

[Macd7919]

There any sort of markings on the pump that come with the Holley hanger? I’m assuming it’s a walbro made unit?

I don't recall off hand, I'll need to drop the tank and pull the pump to see if there is anything. Sounding like you also think this is a pump "failure to perform" issue? At this point I'm guessing I'm looking at a tank replacement with something that can run a more robust or multiple pump setup since the Fox tank is limited for in-tank stuff. I'd rather not run an in-tank and external pump combo if I didn't have to. If that's the case, are the Magnafuel pumps any good? I saw BBRC has a tank and Magnafuel Pro Tuner 750 (Model 4312) pump pre-installed. Would that be a reliable setup for a street car? Not thrilled about dropping another $1600 into this thing but at this point I just want the thing to be done and enjoy it for a summer.

 

[96pushrod]

The fuel level was over half full when doing the pulls?

I’ve had an a1000 pump that’s been on my car for 15 years that’s been extremely reliable. If I was to replace it I’d go with a fuelab prodigy brushless series since they have a built in controller. The magnafuel pumps are very good.

 

[Killer95GT302]

Every time I turn around it's been something and now I'm doing headgaskets on a build that took me 3+ mo to get done working on it one or two days a week. Anyways, just venting a bit.

It sucks and totally get it, sometimes with this hobby it seems outside forces are testing your patience and you have to decide if you want to continue or abandon, and if its worth it to you.

I don't know if I like the design of that Holley setup in general. I'm just conjecturing, but the feed seems small for a big pump like that. Having a big pump running at full voltage thru that small of a feed all the time also seems like it would stress the pump a lot, causing a hot running pump and hot fuel.

I personally am getting by with a DW400 and JMS BAP, so far so good but I might be pushing its limits this season.

 

[Macd7919]

Yes, I had filled the tank to the top (16gal) then drove to the tuner (70mi) with no boost and just cruising at 2000rpm. I should have easily had at least 12-14 gallons in the tank.

Did you go with the full Aeromotive tank setup? I was looking at the BBRC setup in the link below, upside there is I don't need to go to a Cobra sending unit (last I checked a couple hundred bucks). Would I still need a controller with that pump?

86-97 Mustang tank with Magnafuel Pro tuner 750 installed

www.behindbarsracecars.com

 

[Macd7919]

It sucks and totally get it, sometimes with this hobby it seems outside forces are testing your patience and you have to decide if you want to continue or abandon, and if its worth it to you.

I don't know if I like the design of that Holley setup in general. I'm just conjecturing, but the feed seems small for a big pump like that. Having a big pump running at full voltage thru that small of a feed all the time also seems like it would stress the pump a lot, causing a hot running pump and hot fuel.

I personally am getting by with a DW400 and JMS BAP, so far so good but I might be pushing its limits this season.

Yea, it's been a journey. Had a water pump leak (apparently TuffStuff doesn't actually tighten the backing plate on their pumps when they ship them), then the power steering pump blew the front seal when I was pulling the car off the lift for the first time, then the Fel Pro headgaskets apparently don't reach up to the lower under the head so had an oil leak and had to pull the lower back off and pack the area best I could with RTV since the heads were already installed. Lower intake manifold pulled the threads on the middle mounting hole at 12lbs of torque when it should have been 20 so had to install an insert. It's just been a battle the whole time. Again, just some venting. I'm going to call Holley this morning and grill them a bit about why a 525 pump is falling off of pressure well below it's advertised flow rate. I'm guessing all I'm going to get is a "send it in and we will look at it" response. I was looking at the BBRC setup in my post above and was interested in feedback. Any experience with those pumps and/or tank setups?

 

[AL P]

I have a BBRC tank in my car, it is the sumped version for an external pump but it is a real nice piece.

The pump or regulator is definitely suspect in your case but looking at the datalog it seems as though the loss of fuel just put you into a danger zone that would not have been so close if you were on less boost, better fuel or even a lower AFR target.

I have not used Holley pumps but I have not heard good things about them. Even the fancy dominator pumps are just two small in tank pumps in an aluminum case.

 

[Macd7919]

I have a BBRC tank in my car, it is the sumped version for an external pump but it is a real nice piece.

The pump or regulator is definitely suspect in your case but looking at the datalog it seems as though the loss of fuel just put you into a danger zone that would not have been so close if you were on less boost, better fuel or even a lower AFR target.

I have not used Holley pumps but I have not heard good things about them. Even the fancy dominator pumps are just two small in tank pumps in an aluminum case.

Yes, it sounds like I just got unlucky (what's new if you've read the rest of this thread) and had the perfect storm of bad luck to pop a gasket. At first I thought the regulator may have been an issue but it seemed to be increasing pressure as you would expect until it wasn't. On other runs (granted at lower boost) the regulator seemed to be doing it's job. FWIW it's a regulator from Glenn's which I believe are usually quality pieces. I saw a mention in another group to test it by running the adjustment screw in and prime it (with ignition/injectors disconnected) and see what pressure it reaches/maintains. I was thinking about just feeding it some air from the compressor but it seems that would be harder to test when the car isn't actually running and you'd have to have decent control over the compressor pressure. Ironically the only review on that pump on the Holley site says something about the pump not keeping up under boost and needing a second pump to be added.....I don't recall seeing that review when I was purchasing the pump so I may just be a victim of an overrated pump.

 

[stangjumper]

Yes that drop in fp looks normal for pump running out of flow, especially if the ecu was adding injector pulse to try to compensate.

I run a Bosch 044 pump full time and a weldon pump with a bap on it. With the boost a pump turned off, I found the limit of my setup. 215lb injectors at 85% duty cycle. Turned bap on and no more issues.

When it comes to fuel system, never a place to try to just get by(not that you did). Hopefully you didn't damage a piston. It takes a lot for an mls gasket to blow.

 

[Macd7919]

Yes that drop in fp looks normal for pump running out of flow, especially if the ecu was adding injector pulse to try to compensate.

I run a Bosch 044 pump full time and a weldon pump with a bap on it. With the boost a pump turned off, I found the limit of my setup. 215lb injectors at 85% duty cycle. Turned bap on and no more issues.

When it comes to fuel system, never a place to try to just get by(not that you did). Hopefully you didn't damage a piston. It takes a lot for an mls gasket to blow.

Yea, I didn't think I was skimping out (it's just a street car) and even bought the Holley 525 instead of the Walbro 450 the Glenn's kit comes with because I thought I was giving myself a little safety for exactly this scenario. Disappointing. On the upside there didn't seem to be any oil burning and there is no coolant in the oil. The tuner (who does lots and lots of stuff for big hp drag cars/people come from all over the PNW to see him) seemed confident it was just a gasket. As you mentioned, the injectors were trying to compensate. I believe he said they had shot up to 80% or so right before the gasket went. He's recommending I go to Cometic gaskets vs the Fel Pro's as he said they have a better fire ring on them and seem to hold better in boosted applications. He said on NA setups he runs the Fel-Pro's no problem. I went with Fel Pro's as that's what Woody recommended and what was available at the time. I trust Woody so I'm not completely sold on the Cometic unles anyone else has similar experience to what the tuner is saying. Overall just bummed out over the whole thing. Don't have a ton of spare time and the family was patient with me for 3mo getting it together and missing weekend time with them etc... I was hoping to have it wrapped up so we could enjoy it this Spring/Summer but now have a headgasket job to contend with. On that note, it appears, from me standing outside the car and the coolant residue that the driver side gasket blew, the #5 plug also had some coolant on it. Would I be foolish to just replace that single gasket? That would save me quite a bit of work as to get to the passenger side I have to basically pull the whole turbo kit. The driver side I can access pretty easily.

 

[Killer95GT302]

I wouldn't leave it to chance, compression and leak down tests will give you the answer.

 

[strokeme]

Yea, I didn't think I was skimping out (it's just a street car) and even bought the Holley 525 instead of the Walbro 450 the Glenn's kit comes with because I thought I was giving myself a little safety for exactly this scenario. Disappointing. On the upside there didn't seem to be any oil burning and there is no coolant in the oil. The tuner (who does lots and lots of stuff for big hp drag cars/people come from all over the PNW to see him) seemed confident it was just a gasket. As you mentioned, the injectors were trying to compensate. I believe he said they had shot up to 80% or so right before the gasket went. He's recommending I go to Cometic gaskets vs the Fel Pro's as he said they have a better fire ring on them and seem to hold better in boosted applications. He said on NA setups he runs the Fel-Pro's no problem. I went with Fel Pro's as that's what Woody recommended and what was available at the time. I trust Woody so I'm not completely sold on the Cometic unles anyone else has similar experience to what the tuner is saying. Overall just bummed out over the whole thing. Don't have a ton of spare time and the family was patient with me for 3mo getting it together and missing weekend time with them etc... I was hoping to have it wrapped up so we could enjoy it this Spring/Summer but now have a headgasket job to contend with. On that note, it appears, from me standing outside the car and the coolant residue that the driver side gasket blew, the #5 plug also had some coolant on it. Would I be foolish to just replace that single gasket? That would save me quite a bit of work as to get to the passenger side I have to basically pull the whole turbo kit. The driver side I can access pretty easily.

Same head gasket on a 427 that makes nearly triple what you made, it's not the 4 layers of steels fault lol. Pretty silly shaming the part that has nothing to do with the culprit, it's par for the course though.

 

[Macd7919]

Same head gasket on a 427 that makes nearly triple what you made, it's not the 4 layers of steels fault lol. Pretty silly shaming the part that has nothing to do with the culprit, it's par for the course though.

Thanks, Jim. I will say he wasn't really "talking down" on the Fel-Pro, it was more along the lines of "I've always used this and had good luck as they have better fire rings". I had discussed what gasket to use with you when I put the heads on and I trust your experience with this setup since you build them day in/day out and he is more of a GM builder from what I can tell (not that Fel Pro is better or worse on a GM, just that he probably tunes 2-3 SBF's for every 10 LS's). If you've got any advice or insight based on the previous posts feel free to let me know. The car made great power for the setup up until the fuel pump issue. I'm desperatly hoping he is correct in that there was no bottom end damage since things seemed to be relatively on the safe side up until the pressure bobble and no signs of any oil burning or coolant mixing.

 

[Killer95GT302]

If you want a gasket to hold in detonation then you're just going to break something else.

 

[Macd7919]

If you want a gasket to hold in detonation then you're just going to break something else.

Agreed. That was the approach I took when I was running a Vortech on my stock block. This isn't a full-tilt race car, just a fun street car I may take to test-n-tune a couple times a year and run it just as I pulled it in the parking lot. I put Jim's advice way up there and he assembled the shortblock and has many happy customers so I trust his input.

 

[strokeme]

Thanks, Jim. I will say he wasn't really "talking down" on the Fel-Pro, it was more along the lines of "I've always used this and had good luck as they have better fire rings". I had discussed what gasket to use with you when I put the heads on and I trust your experience with this setup since you build them day in/day out and he is more of a GM builder from what I can tell (not that Fel Pro is better or worse on a GM, just that he probably tunes 2-3 SBF's for every 10 LS's). If you've got any advice or insight based on the previous posts feel free to let me know. The car made great power for the setup up until the fuel pump issue. I'm desperatly hoping he is correct in that there was no bottom end damage since things seemed to be relatively on the safe side up until the pressure bobble and no signs of any oil burning or coolant mixing.

It doesn't matter what he tunes. If he had his way, your head gasket would be intact with huge holes in pistons. Boggles the mind really.