[Layzie]

i offered chris several thousand dollars to help me tune my car. Hes a busy man and did not have the time.

i have called, and called and nobody reputable will help dial in and tune a car using pro-m.

now, if you read pro-m website and manual, no shop will tune pro-m because it doesnt need to be tuned. chris will tell you to read the instructions again and follow it to a T. If you do that, your problem will go away.

kj above said he doesnt tune each cyl individually so the instructions are likely correct.

 

[Chris93Cobra]

I'm running Autolite 3923's, which I believe are the correct heat range for my setup.

Those are a 6 heat range. That is one range hotter than what I have. I am running E85 / 363CI like you / Procharger D1SC with 13 PSI boost. When it was on 93 octane I was running a 8 heat range plug.

 

[32Vpwr]

14-16deg of timing u are running at part throttle cruise right now?

 

[Chris93Cobra]

Well I definitely don't have individual EGTs or O2s for each cylinder and I don't think the Pro-M system allows for more than two. I figured that must be the only way to accurately tune each cylinder.

I've tried messing with the lambda and timing in the cruise load cells, but so far haven't found a combination that has improved the bucking. I'll play with it some more though.

Can anyone tell me why the cells in the Base Spark table from 1500-2500 RPM and 0.3-0.5 load are much lower than the surrounding cells (14-16 degrees) and the cells in the Base Lambda table from 1750-2500 RPM and 0.3-0.5 load are much lower than the surrounding cells (0.92-0.94 lambda)? Is it because those are supposedly the "cruise" load cells and cruise needs less timing and more fuel? Where I'm experiencing a lot of the bucking is right above this block of cells (0.15-0.25 load) which has timing set at 20 degrees and lambda set at 0.99-1.00 in the base preset tune tables.

You could try bumping timing up 2 degrees that area in the Spark Table and see if it helps. If it gets worse try the other way 2 degrees.

It also might be rich bucking. 0.92 -0.94 Lambda (13.468 - 13.7616 AFR (Gas Scale) is fairly rich in my opinion for cruising. Typically factory is at 1 lambda (14.64 AFR Gas Scale) for cruising and more than likely could be run at 1.02 - 1.04 lambda (14.93 - 15.2 AFR Gas Scale) for cruising. This is where Ford set it in the Mustangs for "Lean Cruise Mode" in the EEC computers.

Another theory is that if you have a large cam with lots of valve overlap and the injector timing is firing when the exhaust valve is open, could lead to ultra lean conditions because of the fuel going out the exhaust. The O2 sees this and cuts more fuel out until it is "bucking because of not enough fuel in the combustion chamber. Just a few thoughts.

 

[stangjumper]

That's not oil on the threads, it's anti-seize. I did swap 5 and 8 with 6 and 7 and the problem didn't follow. Your plugs look great...how I was hoping mine would look. How have you gone about the individual cylinder tuning and what data are you looking at for that tuning? I'm not sure if my issue would benefit from individual cylinder tuning or not, but I'd like to learn what I can and play around with it.

Loose the anti-seize, it's not needed. Those 3923 plugs are fine for boosted applications. I prefer the AR3923's, once you get the engine running better.

I have 8 egts installed. You have to be careful using individual cylinder tuning. You can cause more issues than help. I do use individual cylinder tuning for WOT. Just keep in mind that the 02 readings are an AVERAGE a/f for all the cylinders on that bank. you can have one cylinder 1.0 ratio of more richer/leaner.

A lot of variables between cylinders; different intake runner lengths, injector flow variances, exhaust system cylinder piping differences, an so on.

I am currently running a super victor intake. I spent a lot of time massaging the runners to try to equalize the egt's (under wot) on my setup. It made a significant difference. I have to find some egt logs before/after.

I am not running a ProM ECU. My old/outdated ECU can do everything a ProM can do, and more. I don't want to turn this into an ECU bashing thread. I have never used a ProM.

Don't believe all the BS that the ProM doesn't need tuning. Again, don't believe that one bit. Some are content with installing and ECU and calling it a day. That's all well and good. Each engine needs to be optimized. You can not have a fuel and timing map that is perfect for ever engine, IMPOSSIBLE. All part of the sales pitch.

Where are you located again? I think you are far from me. If I could help you out, I would certainly try.

 

[Chris93Cobra]

Here is Fords Spark Table straight out of a A9L Computer. This is assumed that your distributer is set to 10 degrees advanced with the spout out. You can see in the same load areas that Ford is much different.

 

[stangjumper]

You could try bumping timing up 2 degrees that area in the Spark Table and see if it helps. If it gets worse try the other way 2 degrees.

It also might be rich bucking. 0.92 -0.94 Lambda (13.468 - 13.7616 AFR (Gas Scale) is fairly rich in my opinion for cruising. Typically factory is at 1 lambda (14.64 AFR Gas Scale) for cruising and more than likely could be run at 1.02 - 1.04 lambda (14.93 - 15.2 AFR Gas Scale) for cruising. This is where Ford set it in the Mustangs for "Lean Cruise Mode" in the EEC computers.

Another theory is that if you have a large cam with lots of valve overlap and the injector timing is firing when the exhaust valve is open, could lead to ultra lean conditions because of the fuel going out the exhaust. The O2 sees this and cuts more fuel out until it is "bucking because of not enough fuel in the combustion chamber. Just a few thoughts.

This is true with larger/longer duration/more overlap camshafts.

I also have my cruise a/f set at 14.7:1.

Larger cams tend to want more timing at idle.

Dnash what are your cam specs again? I don't think they were to aggressive from my poor memory.

 

[Chris93Cobra]

Decipha's A9L2 Base Spark Table.

I do agree with above that each Engine needs its own timing map though. All of these including Pro-M's are made to work generally well with a majority of engines. There are a lot of variables that come into play like said above.

 

[DNash1966]

14-16deg of timing u are running at part throttle cruise right now?

The table reads 14-16 degrees at loads of 30-50 and 20 degrees from 0.05-0.20 load which results in about 18 degrees at 0.25 load where a lot of my cruising happens. But the actual timing then adds 10 degrees to what is shown in the table, so timing at cruise speeds is typically around 28-30 degrees.

 

[DNash1966]

You could try bumping timing up 2 degrees that area in the Spark Table and see if it helps. If it gets worse try the other way 2 degrees.

It also might be rich bucking. 0.92 -0.94 Lambda (13.468 - 13.7616 AFR (Gas Scale) is fairly rich in my opinion for cruising. Typically factory is at 1 lambda (14.64 AFR Gas Scale) for cruising and more than likely could be run at 1.02 - 1.04 lambda (14.93 - 15.2 AFR Gas Scale) for cruising. This is where Ford set it in the Mustangs for "Lean Cruise Mode" in the EEC computers.

Another theory is that if you have a large cam with lots of valve overlap and the injector timing is firing when the exhaust valve is open, could lead to ultra lean conditions because of the fuel going out the exhaust. The O2 sees this and cuts more fuel out until it is "bucking because of not enough fuel in the combustion chamber. Just a few thoughts.

The table has 0.92-0.94 lambda from 0.3-0.8 load, but most of my cruising happens at 0.15-0.25 load, which is set at 0.99-1.00 lambda in the table. The bucking that I'm experiencing is at these lower loads.

 

[DNash1966]

Loose the anti-seize, it's not needed. Those 3923 plugs are fine for boosted applications. I prefer the AR3923's, once you get the engine running better.

I have 8 egts installed. You have to be careful using individual cylinder tuning. You can cause more issues than help. I do use individual cylinder tuning for WOT. Just keep in mind that the 02 readings are an AVERAGE a/f for all the cylinders on that bank. you can have one cylinder 1.0 ratio of more richer/leaner.

A lot of variables between cylinders; different intake runner lengths, injector flow variances, exhaust system cylinder piping differences, an so on.

I am currently running a super victor intake. I spent a lot of time massaging the runners to try to equalize the egt's (under wot) on my setup. It made a significant difference. I have to find some egt logs before/after.

I am not running a ProM ECU. My old/outdated ECU can do everything a ProM can do, and more. I don't want to turn this into an ECU bashing thread. I have never used a ProM.

Don't believe all the BS that the ProM doesn't need tuning. Again, don't believe that one bit. Some are content with installing and ECU and calling it a day. That's all well and good. Each engine needs to be optimized. You can not have a fuel and timing map that is perfect for ever engine, IMPOSSIBLE. All part of the sales pitch.

Where are you located again? I think you are far from me. If I could help you out, I would certainly try.

Thanks for all the advice. So far, the Pro-M road that I have gone down has been an extremely frustrating one. I'm located in Utah.

 

[DNash1966]

This is true with larger/longer duration/more overlap camshafts.

I also have my cruise a/f set at 14.7:1.

Larger cams tend to want more timing at idle.

Dnash what are your cam specs again? I don't think they were to aggressive from my poor memory.

Here's my cam card.

 

[32Vpwr]

add another 10-12 deg at cruise load cells. sorry i dont run maf, my fuel load is referenced by map. also try 1.03 1.05 lamda. maybe it helps maybe not. in cruise loads. again idk ur cam specs. i have minimal overlap and wide lsa turbo setup so i can tell u what works for me

 

[DNash1966]

View attachment 1096252
Here is Fords Spark Table straight out of a A9L Computer. This is assumed that your distributer is set to 10 degrees advanced with the spout out. You can see in the same load areas that Ford is much different.

The distributor is set at 10 degrees with the spout out. Thank you for this table. It's a helpful reference point.

 

[DNash1966]

View attachment 1096256
Decipha's A9L2 Base Spark Table.

I do agree with above that each Engine needs its own timing map though. All of these including Pro-M's are made to work generally well with a majority of engines. There are a lot of variables that come into play like said above.

Thank you for this table. It's a helpful reference point. I'm going to have to play around with the timing a bit more to see if I can get the bucking to disappear.

 

[DNash1966]

add another 10-12 deg at cruise load cells. sorry i dont run maf, my fuel load is referenced by map. also try 1.03 1.05 lamda. maybe it helps maybe not. in cruise loads. again idk ur cam specs. i have minimal overlap and wide lsa turbo setup so i can tell u what works for me

Thank you for the suggestions. I'll give them a try and see if it helps. My cam card is posted above in post #32.

 

[Michael Plummer]

Anti-seize and spark plugs....from a Google search.

Torque ratings: This is commonly forgotten and extremely important. Torque ratings on fasteners are based on their target clamping force. Anti-seize will act as a lubricant; those lubricating properties will significantly decrease the required torque to achieve the desired clamping force. This is often referred to as a torque multiplier. Using anti-seize without reducing the required torque value can strip the threads or stretch the bolt in extreme situations and cause over-tightening of the spark plug and possibly even breakage of the plug.

Over-tightening can also distort the spark plug shell, causing a leak that would allow blow-by to pass through the gasket seal between the shell and insulator.

• Anti-seize can also affect the grounding ability of the spark plug in today's higher-voltage ignition systems.
• Virtually all spark plugs (Autolite included) now feature a special anti-seizure nickel or zinc-chromate shell plating. Basically, you can think of the plating as a replacement for thread compound or copper slip.
• Most spark plug manufacturers do not recommend using it when installing new plugs. Most automobile manufacturers have no mention of applying it to spark plugs when replacing the plugs.
• Final recommendation; clean the threads of the head and install dry.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer

 

[kjb302ho]

Loose the anti-seize, it's not needed. Those 3923 plugs are fine for boosted applications. I prefer the AR3923's, once you get the engine running better.

I have 8 egts installed. You have to be careful using individual cylinder tuning. You can cause more issues than help. I do use individual cylinder tuning for WOT. Just keep in mind that the 02 readings are an AVERAGE a/f for all the cylinders on that bank. you can have one cylinder 1.0 ratio of more richer/leaner.

A lot of variables between cylinders; different intake runner lengths, injector flow variances, exhaust system cylinder piping differences, an so on.

I am currently running a super victor intake. I spent a lot of time massaging the runners to try to equalize the egt's (under wot) on my setup. It made a significant difference. I have to find some egt logs before/after.

I am not running a ProM ECU. My old/outdated ECU can do everything a ProM can do, and more. I don't want to turn this into an ECU bashing thread. I have never used a ProM.

Don't believe all the BS that the ProM doesn't need tuning. Again, don't believe that one bit. Some are content with installing and ECU and calling it a day. That's all well and good. Each engine needs to be optimized. You can not have a fuel and timing map that is perfect for ever engine, IMPOSSIBLE. All part of the sales pitch.

Where are you located again? I think you are far from me. If I could help you out, I would certainly try.

I agree with that statement. All aftermarket ecms fall into that. But since I dont tune, the pro m fits my needs and since I just swapped over from an si to a ti, I didnt touch the tune.

optimization is a matter of opinion. There are people tuning brand new mustangs right out of the dealership. Fuel/spark table perfect for all combinations? How do I know? I don't. 20+ sbf engine combinations with the pro m says they are pretty close. Were they optimal? Im not sure, but the drivability was very good, acceleration, slowing down coming to a stop very good. Lambda was safe. Starting up shutting off was very good. In my eyes, it was optimal. In your eyes, being a much more experienced tuner, you more than likely would see areas that you feel could be improved.

I wish there were more tuners who ****ed with the pro m. But for a hobbyist who has zero time and zero access to a dyno, its a very good system.

 

[kjb302ho]

Anti-seize and spark plugs....from a Google search.

Torque ratings: This is commonly forgotten and extremely important. Torque ratings on fasteners are based on their target clamping force. Anti-seize will act as a lubricant; those lubricating properties will significantly decrease the required torque to achieve the desired clamping force. This is often referred to as a torque multiplier. Using anti-seize without reducing the required torque value can strip the threads or stretch the bolt in extreme situations and cause over-tightening of the spark plug and possibly even breakage of the plug.

Over-tightening can also distort the spark plug shell, causing a leak that would allow blow-by to pass through the gasket seal between the shell and insulator.

• Anti-seize can also affect the grounding ability of the spark plug in today's higher-voltage ignition systems.
• Virtually all spark plugs (Autolite included) now feature a special anti-seizure nickel or zinc-chromate shell plating. Basically, you can think of the plating as a replacement for thread compound or copper slip.
• Most spark plug manufacturers do not recommend using it when installing new plugs. Most automobile manufacturers have no mention of applying it to spark plugs when replacing the plugs.
• Final recommendation; clean the threads of the head and install dry.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer

Mike, I think you just might have found his issue. Spark plug grounding is often overlooked.

 

[96pushrod]

Mike, I think you just might have found his issue. Spark plug grounding is often overlooked.

Anti seize is conductive, so it would be highly unlikely to cause his issue.