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Please call me Mike
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Discussion Starter #21
I think that’s the way it should work. Maybe my turbo is shot and it’s causing these problems. I don’t think the pro m is at fault. It’s doing what it is supposed to. I do have a new turbo but I have to get some things adjusted so it fits properly.
 

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My advice to you is to stop and wait until you have the supplemental harness installed and are running the newest strategy. The idle control strategy with insight is superior and requires resetting your idle. You're wasting your time setting it with the old one if the new harness is going in within a week.

Other comments:
  • 700 is probably too low
  • TPS voltage does need to be below 0.95
  • Turbo has nothing to do with it
  • Clearing codes doesn't wipe out any learned adjustment (by the way, there isn't any with the old stratgey... but it won't wipe it out on the new one.)
  • How much did you adjust the low slope on your injectors?
 

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Please call me Mike
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Discussion Starter #23
My advice to you is to stop and wait until you have the supplemental harness installed and are running the newest strategy. The idle control strategy with insight is superior and requires resetting your idle. You're wasting your time setting it with the old one if the new harness is going in within a week.

Other comments:
  • 700 is probably too low
  • TPS voltage does need to be below 0.95
  • Turbo has nothing to do with it
  • Clearing codes doesn't wipe out any learned adjustment (by the way, there isn't any with the old stratgey... but it won't wipe it out on the new one.)
  • How much did you adjust the low slope on your injectors?
My old calibration was 5-17. I thought it had some minor learning capability. Maybe it didnt, doesn’t matter.

im am running pro m 62 LB/HR injectors. The low slope was at 110. (135 is listed on website)

I always check TPS when adjusting idle speed.

I installed supplemental harness and started over with instal configuration.

i set idle speed to 850 In the software. Verified timing. adjusted throttle screw and Fuel setup.

low slope is now at 95. I’m not sure why it wanted to be there. I did recalibrate the O2 and I checked the programming. This is a different subject though.

it is doing better. even when I started it the first time. It adjusted the timing quite a bit because throttle was open way to much (1.5 turns) to get desired idle speed.

The manuals in the software are pretty well written and easy to follow. I wish the table of contents was link based.
 

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Please call me Mike
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Discussion Starter #25
Doing better but still not right, or are you running well now?
I'm pretty sure the idling issue is fixed. It starts and idles like it should.

next issue ppiped up after test driving the car.
coming to a stop and pushing in clutch the engine either dies randomly or it half way catches itself and sorta surges for several cyles. It either gets itself back up to idle RPM or doesn’t.

it’s very repeatable with throttle blips at idle.

one nice thing about the new software is it defines each setting so you know what to look for. I was thinking one of the dash pot settings. However, when messing around with them in an organized fashion it didn’t resolve issue. (It was intresting watching how each of them changed how the engine decreased speed) I ended adding some throttle at idle After changing all the dash pot setting back.


I was only able to test it a little. I will do more tonight.
 

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Surging in the beginning is normal. As long as you set up the idle properly (adjust throttle screw to desired RPM with the ISC set to "base idle" in the calibration), then the system needs time to learn and adjust the IAC DC values. This will take time as there are lots of cells in the table and you may not spend time in many of them very long in one session.

Quoting the instruction manual:
You must give the PCM some time to adjust to each condition. As an example, if you you shift your automatic transmission into reverse, and the RPM rises or falls, use the brake to hold the vehicle still for about a minute, and you'll see that the PCM will adjust to the new value. If the air conditioning compressor comes on, and the RPM rises or falls, just hold the vehicle steady for a minute, and let it adjust. Understand that there are many combinations that the PCM must adjust to, so you may see the idle speed rise or fall at various times until the PCM sees and adjusts to all of them. Once this process is complete, you will see a seamless transition between all of the possible scenarios.
 

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coming to a stop and pushing in clutch the engine either dies randomly or it half way catches itself and sorta surges for several cyles. It either gets itself back up to idle RPM or doesn’t.

it’s very repeatable with throttle blips at idle.

you data logged this, right?
 

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I had surging idle. It ended up being my old ass IAC Valve.. I put a new one on and it was mad responsive. I had to retune everything. Also, having the lowest row of timing set high say to 30 degrees will help bounce the idle back up to help from stalling.
 

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Please call me Mike
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Discussion Starter #29
I had surging idle. It ended up being my old ass IAC Valve.. I put a new one on and it was mad responsive. I had to retune everything. Also, having the lowest row of timing set high say to 30 degrees will help bounce the idle back up to help from stalling.
i purchased a new iac when I bought my pro m system. not saying it didn’t mess up just sitting, but unlikely. I’ll keep he timing thing in mind.
 

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no. I don’t have a complete variables list or scope list setup yet. New software needs new lists setup.

maybe make whatever is needed before going driving......

ISC failure is very unlikely

it can be quite possible that its the MOST common part to be swapped for no reason.
 

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Please call me Mike
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Discussion Starter #32
Surging in the beginning is normal. As long as you set up the idle properly (adjust throttle screw to desired RPM with the ISC set to "base idle" in the calibration), then the system needs time to learn and adjust the IAC DC values. This will take time as there are lots of cells in the table and you may not spend time in many of them very long in one session.

Quoting the instruction manual:
You must give the PCM some time to adjust to each condition. As an example, if you you shift your automatic transmission into reverse, and the RPM rises or falls, use the brake to hold the vehicle still for about a minute, and you'll see that the PCM will adjust to the new value. If the air conditioning compressor comes on, and the RPM rises or falls, just hold the vehicle steady for a minute, and let it adjust. Understand that there are many combinations that the PCM must adjust to, so you may see the idle speed rise or fall at various times until the PCM sees and adjusts to all of them. Once this process is complete, you will see a seamless transition between all of the possible scenarios.
i believe I had given it sufficient time to learn or whatever.

I’ll do some more testing and report back. I’m having to setup a new car laptop becuaae battery on the one I was using deteriorated to much to be useable.
 

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oh yea, the thing that everyone wants...... the 'self learning'

ugh.....some people like to conflate 'corrections' as 'self learning', dont be fooled by the marketing hype

there is no system out there that does that, yet.
 

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oh yea, the thing that everyone wants...... the 'self learning'

ugh.....some people like to conflate 'corrections' as 'self learning', dont be fooled by the marketing hype

there is no system out there that does that, yet.

For the sake of others, I will respond to this.

Indy is incorrect. Don't be fooled by his 22K + post count. He doesn't have a Pro M system nor does he understand how it works or what it can do.

Corrections and Adaptive Learning are two separate features within the Pro M Insight software. The older UTune only had corrections, but Insight has both. The system starts with generic IAC DC 3D tables which it uses to run the car on initial startup. (There are 4 total. Two are for auto trans in gear. Two are for manuals / auto trans in N. Each of those groupings as has one table for AC on and one table for AC off.) Closed loop feedback is used to make corrections to IAC DC to hit target RPM. Final IAC DC used to hit that target is "learned" and written to a corresponding but totally separate IAC DC table. (That means there are 8 tables total: 4 are for the out-of-the-box values and 4 are the "learned," adaptive tables.) The engine subsequently runs off one of the 4 adaptive tables constructed from the DC values that were "learned" to be correct under whatever condition was encountered.

I'm not conflating the two. Corrections happen in the moment and the engine must stray from target before corrections can take place... hence the hunt, surge, bounce... whatever you want to call it. If corrections are recorded and used to construct a totally new table that will be used in place of the initial table, then corrections no longer need to get applied.
 

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I dont have to own it to understand how it works, and my post count is irrelevant, but its a nice touch by you and your cohorts.

there are a lot things people 'dont own' and guess what, they know how those things work better than the people that have been marketed to own them things

this sub forum has produced several owners of this system, that have the same symptoms

I am sure there are many more that have not posted.

the common theme, is that these owners have selected this system based on the 'no tuning required' mantra, just input a few 'simple' constants

So, it is obvious that tuning is required, as i would expect.

And if you knew anything about how PID operation works, you would not have posted what you did regarding the tables, as a PID can easily be driven to extreme deviation of setpoint without the correct rate of correction

suffice it to say, lets see the logs before telling someone to 'give it more time'
 

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Your posts/replies in the Pro M forum are of zero value to anyone who owns it or is looking to purchase it. Just give us one fricking forum for the love of everything holy!
 

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Please call me Mike
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Discussion Starter #37
For the sake of others, I will respond to this.

Indy is incorrect. Don't be fooled by his 22K + post count. He doesn't have a Pro M system nor does he understand how it works or what it can do.

Corrections and Adaptive Learning are two separate features within the Pro M Insight software. The older UTune only had corrections, but Insight has both. The system starts with generic IAC DC 3D tables which it uses to run the car on initial startup. (There are 4 total. Two are for auto trans in gear. Two are for manuals / auto trans in N. Each of those groupings as has one table for AC on and one table for AC off.) Closed loop feedback is used to make corrections to IAC DC to hit target RPM. Final IAC DC used to hit that target is "learned" and written to a corresponding but totally separate IAC DC table. (That means there are 8 tables total: 4 are for the out-of-the-box values and 4 are the "learned," adaptive tables.) The engine subsequently runs off one of the 4 adaptive tables constructed from the DC values that were "learned" to be correct under whatever condition was encountered.

I'm not conflating the two. Corrections happen in the moment and the engine must stray from target before corrections can take place... hence the hunt, surge, bounce... whatever you want to call it. If corrections are recorded and used to construct a totally new table that will be used in place of the initial table, then corrections no longer need to get applied.
that makes since.
I was taking the approach that the adaptive setting only took place when car wasn’t moving and throttle was at rest. If issue came up after throttle was pressed and released but car was still coasting will it do what it needs to adjust values. I also felt I needed to be sure my engines mechanical settings (throttle blade,timing, and fuel) were correct before messing around with other settings.

question: in my varible list I have the adaptive fuel listed. is that number a percentage of the afr that it is adjusting or is it based on a adaptive table of some sort?

the fuel PI corrections are very low.
 

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Your posts/replies in the Pro M forum are of zero value to anyone who owns it or is looking to purchase it. Just give us one fricking forum for the love of everything holy!

whining as usual, you would think your parents would teach you to stop whining.....i guess you were not loved enough, is that it?

you and the other "owners" of this product have NOT been able to solve ONE issue for posters here regarding simple throttle position transitions......

so sit back and just read for a while, and learn something
 

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Show me one reply in here where you've helped us and I'll stop whining. I've only wasted time filtering through your garbage in here, far from learning.
 

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Cohorts? No, that was all me. The only thing that's obvious is that you do not understand how this system works. You said the system doesn't self learn. That is a false statement. End of story.

Lots of people posting with issues - yes. And how many of them were because they didn't set base timing correctly, had vacuum leaks, improperly configured PCV systems, junk parts in distributors, etc? ALMOST ALL OF THEM.

I will grant you this - there are some cars that can benefit from tuning. Extreme builds will benefit from adjusting spark and fuel values to safely squeak all the power possible out of the combination. That type of stuff won't get learned. If that is what you were trying to imply, then I will agree with you. To fine tune drivability to a car owner's liking, other features like ISC Dashpot controls and decel fuel may necessitate adjustment. But, I don't believe Pro M ever said anything to the contrary. The claim is that the car should run well right out of the box provided there are no mechanical issues with the car and the setup instructions are followed meticulously.

I could say more, but let's keep it civil and on topic so that this thread doesn't get shut down. For the sake of the OP, Indy, let's just drop it. If you want to start your own thread about how you think throttle mode transitions should be tuned in the Pro M system, go for it.

mr_minnis, there are loads of variables you could be looking at, so I'm not positive that this answer will be correct, but you're probably looking at the percentage of fuel at that precise moment that is being added or subtracted from what would normally be commanded without adaptive learning enabled. In my opinion, there is little value in looking at this in a variables list. If you want to know what has been leaned for fueling, you would be better served to read the adaptive fuel tables for each bank out of the ecu. Using the Calibration list and not the Variables list, open Fuel > Adaptive > and each bank. With key on, select Read in each table. The tables will fill in with the learned adjustments up until that point.
 
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