[Racer LX]

Hi,

Hope you guys can help me out with some turbo questions. A friend and I are going to be swapping over his car from supercharged to turbocharged. He has a Sportmans block (stock 302 inches), Eagle swinging assembly, 9:1 compression. He already has Victor Jr heads, and a Holley intake. We made 603 RWHP with it, using a Novi supercharger at 14#’s of boost. He’s wanting to try a turbo now, so here’s where the questions start. We tried to do some searches here, and actually got more questions in our heads from it as we went along. Anyway, here goes.

From reading the boards here, it looks like the main turbo kit players are PTK, Turbo HP, and Turbo Technology. What company would you guys recommend, basing the decision first on quality of the kit, second, the availability (we don’t want to be building this thing in 2006, lol), customer service, and lastly, price.

Next up, power questions. We are looking for a semi-serious power output, like around 700 RWHP, and want to do a single turbo kit. What do you guys think is better, using a larger turbo with a smaller exhaust housing for street spool up, or using a smaller turbo with a bigger exhaust housing? I think a single PT 70 or similar turbo would get us where we want to be, but what do you guys think about this for a street car? What size exhaust housing? We’re thinking a .69 for street spool up, but will that get in the way of making the power we’re looking for? Anybody run this size turbo and have real world experience with it? Would we be better off using something smaller like a PT 66?

What about intake manifolds? We have a Holley intake that rocks in supercharged applications, does anyone use them in turbo apps? I’m actually thinking of using a Victor 5.0 on this, as I don’t think we need a long runner manifold with a turbo with how much torque they make. Thing is, we don’t know how the car will act off boost, and we don’t want a dog off boost. What’s the general concensus there, long runners or short?

What about cams? I see a lot of folks saying that the F cam works well with turbos. How much HP do you think the F cam can support? And what other off the shelf cams have worked for you guys in the past?

How are you guys doing your engine mgt? We've been using a Extender and a BTM with the supercharger, but what works best with a turbo? We were thinking about a PMS maybe.

Lastly, what about gears? We have 3.73’s in the car now, which I think will be too much. We’re thinking about going with a set of 3.27’s. Does that sound good? I’ve seen other cars that have moved to 3.08’s with a strong turbo motor too though. What are your thoughts there? The car has a Tremec in it.

I think that’s it for now. Sorry about the long post, just wanted to throw out all our questions at once. Thanks guys.

Jim

 

[easterisland]

Hi,

Hope you guys can help me out with some turbo questions...From reading the boards here, it looks like the main turbo kit players are PTK, Turbo HP, and Turbo Technology. What company would you guys recommend, basing the decision first on quality of the kit, second, the availability (we don’t want to be building this thing in 2006, lol), customer service, and lastly, price.

Let me tell you that I ordered a PTK kit on 04-27-04. They said 6-8 weeks delivery. Well, 9 weeks later they haven't even started my kit and refuse to refund(stole) my $1992 deposit. I have only heard one case when they delivered under 8 weeks. It seems most people who order from these theives get their kits in about 4 months or so...if they are lucky.

 

[asc]

easterisland:

You'ld best not be into custom firearms in addition to your custom car hobby. I've seen jobs quoted at 4 weeks take 2 years, or longer. The best HK smith in the nation takes 3 years with anything, and he doesn't even begin to come close to his time quotes yet still has business coming out his ears. Why? People in that industry expect quality, and will wait for it. Don't even ask about the fabled Shrike AR-15 receiver, over a whole year late and there are a good thousand or so people with deposits similar to yours in on it. If it's custom, the rules are just different.

This is what comes with the "custom" tag. Don't like it, don't pay. Sure, there was a quote on time, but it was stated "usual", which means it could take forever. You should have been prepared to wait longer, or at least been up front with them considering your demands on time frame. I can already see PTK's website has updated to show they are no longer taking orders for Mustang kits, perhaps they understand their issues better than you presume? I'm sure they know they can't stay in business with unsatisfied customers.

I've done no business with anyone on any turbo kit, I've only been reading the threads. I would still do biz with these people, but I live in Texas and would be willing to wait out the quality. Relax, quit slandering a custom company by calling them thieves, and you'll likely get more flies with honey than vinegar.

When you do get your kit, tell us if it sucks or not. Inquiring minds do want to know.

 

[easterisland]

easterisland:

You'ld best not be into custom firearms in addition to your custom car hobby. I've seen jobs quoted at 4 weeks take 2 years, or longer. The best HK smith in the nation takes 3 years with anything, and he doesn't even begin to come close to his time quotes yet still has business coming out his ears. Why? People in that industry expect quality, and will wait for it. Don't even ask about the fabled Shrike AR-15 receiver, over a whole year late and there are a good thousand or so people with deposits similar to yours in on it. If it's custom, the rules are just different.

This is what comes with the "custom" tag. Don't like it, don't pay. Sure, there was a quote on time, but it was stated "usual", which means it could take forever. You should have been prepared to wait longer, or at least been up front with them considering your demands on time frame. I can already see PTK's website has updated to show they are no longer taking orders for Mustang kits, perhaps they understand their issues better than you presume? I'm sure they know they can't stay in business with unsatisfied customers.

I've done no business with anyone on any turbo kit, I've only been reading the threads. I would still do biz with these people, but I live in Texas and would be willing to wait out the quality. Relax, quit slandering a custom company by calling them thieves, and you'll likely get more flies with honey than vinegar.

When you do get your kit, tell us if it sucks or not. Inquiring minds do want to know.

Well, I didn't order a custom firearm. I ordered a turbo kit ofr a stock 91 mustang and they said it would be delivered in 6-8 weeks. It hasn't even been started yet and it has already been 9 weeks. They refuse to return my money.

This tells me a few things about their company.
1. they mislead at the time of sale.
2. they cannot ship a kit out on time.
3. after their misleading sales tactics and failure to ship a kit when they will they refuse to refund the deposit.

Dang, sounds like a company I want to business with. Actually, it sounds like a business that is on the verge of going under. They obviously cannot afford to return to me the deposit because they already spent it.

 

[easterisland]

easterisland:

Relax, quit slandering a custom company by calling them thieves, and you'll likely get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Do you know what slander is?
What do you call a company that says I will be delivered a turbo kit in 6-8 weeks, yet that same turbo kit hasn't even been made after 9 weeks? Then same company refuses to refund my $1992 deposit. I call that stealing. They have stole from me. They have allegedly stolen from others. That makes them thieves.

The whole honey vinegar thing is really nice, but PTK started with the vinegar. The only difference is their vinegar is lies and mine is truth.

 

[asc]

Let's start with your 1,2,3...

1.) You state originally in this post:

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=513556

"I signed a paper that says delivery is normally 6-8 weeks from deposit."

So, you signed a piece of paper that stated that there was a chance your kit would not be delivered in the normal time frame. I fail to see why you are so upset, as you should have been prepared for an abnormal turn-around time. Do you have this piece of paper still? There might be some more things you signed to that should be out in the open.

2.) On-time is not always normal. See #1. Perhaps they do have a delivery issue, their website seems to indicate a demand more than they can keep up with. I see no dishonesty here, just ambitious goals that might have caught them by surprise. How long have they been in business? If they are still in the early stages, this should not surprise anyone, especially if they put out a quality product and demand is just too high. Do we have some reviews on the quality of PTK kits? For $1992, that's awfully cheap. What was supposed to come for this price?

3.) If they are actually stealing your money, you should call the local Sheriff's Dept., whose number I would be happy to provide you. In addition, if you mailed a check, it's postal fraud. If the piece of paper you signed has information in it pertaining to your deposit, you should post that information. Perhaps you should just scan the whole thing in and post it so that we can all see what PTK is asking for before we get on board as well. If they have clauses that call for losses of deposit due to reasons that are not the fault of the purchaser, I don't want to do business there either.

Sorry, but you just sound like someone who didn't know what they were getting into, failed to read the fine print, and feels burned because of it. I've been in customer service a long time, own my own business, and don't see a company being in business for long if they don't put out. However, as a business owner, I know that there are some customers who are wrong, and there is nothing you can do to make things right.

If you are right, and you were misled and robbed, I will support any claims you have to make.

As to my vocabulary, I believe one of the legal definitions of slander is as follows:

"Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation."

In order to determine what you have said to be true or false, I would have to see what you signed. Will you be posting that form? Also, I forget if this bulletin board type dialogue qualifies as 'oral' vs. 'written', but I don't even play a lawyer on TV.

This isn't intended to be a flame war, it is intended to point out that if you are going to put your money down before you take delivery, KNOW THE TERMS. Words such as "normally" are on those papers for a reason. Custom work isn't done on a stamping machine or a Harbor Freight MIG welder. Delays happen, for a million reasons, and if you aren't prepared to deal with a delay, then you need to make absolutely sure you have your terms established before you start writing checks.

I await the posting of the PTK sales agreement you have signed. Again, I don't work for PTK, know anyone there, or know anyone with a PTK kit.

 

[easterisland]

I posted the sales agreement on TM look over there for it. The fine print says "normal" delivery 6-8 weeks. This was confirmed by the salesman on the phone at time of order.

Let's look at the definition of normal.

Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical

I do not have access to records at PTK I'll have to go by what I have read on internet forums on Corral and TM. I have found one person who has received their kit in 8 weeks. I have found no one who received their kit in 6 weeks or 7 weeks. I have found many people who have received their kits after 13 weeks. You can confirm this with a search.

So, what is normal? Based upon what I have found I would say that normal is 13 weeks or longer. 6 weeks is impossible, 7 weeks is impossible, and 8 weeks is highly unlikely.

Their "normal" delivery is not 6-8 weeks as they state on their sales agreement. Therefore, I feel I am due a refund. I would have not said anything if I received the kit at my doorstep with in the 6-8 weeks. I do not care about any issues they have with their manufacturing process. I do not care if they cannot get parts. They should have dealt with that before they told me they could get me a kit within 6-8 weeks.

Refusing to refund my deposit when they broke the contract is theft.

 

[asc]

So, you have their entire sales and delivery history handy to parse? Do you think that only business they've done is what you have read about? Have you considered the fact that statistics show that dissatisfied customers speak out 10:1 over the satisfied? Perhaps you don't have the whole story here, and what you are getting is a very vocal minority (of which you might belong to).

As frustrating as it is, I'll go to TM.com and look for your postings. (looks)

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=18434

I see your complaint here. I also see at least three people who had absolutely few problems in this thread. I doubt PTK is still in business because they only have three satisfied customers.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20133

Another thread with another complaint by you, and another satisfied customer.

Of course, this choice quote from you clearly shows your motivation:

"I really don't care who feels warm and cozy with their experience with PTK."

Misery sure loves company.

After seeing your many posts at TM, and here, and your rabid assult on PTK since their failing to live up to your expectations, it's clear to me that you're one of "those" customers who will never be happy. In fact, it seems the only thing that is going to make you happy is for your crusade against PTK to result in their total bankruptcy and closure. Enjoy, I'm sure you'll keep Pepto-Bismol in business for years to come. Me, I'll continue to read the fine print, with my feet planted firmly in reality, and know what I am getting into before I put my money down.

 

[easterisland]

So, you have their entire sales and delivery history handy to parse? Do you think that only business they've done is what you have read about? Have you considered the fact that statistics show that dissatisfied customers speak out 10:1 over the satisfied? Perhaps you don't have the whole story here, and what you are getting is a very vocal minority (of which you might belong to).

As frustrating as it is, I'll go to TM.com and look for your postings. (looks)

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=18434

I see your complaint here. I also see at least three people who had absolutely few problems in this thread. I doubt PTK is still in business because they only have three satisfied customers.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20133

Another thread with another complaint by you, and another satisfied customer.

Of course, this choice quote from you clearly shows your motivation:

"I really don't care who feels warm and cozy with their experience with PTK."

Misery sure loves company.

After seeing your many posts at TM, and here, and your rabid assult on PTK since their failing to live up to your expectations, it's clear to me that you're one of "those" customers who will never be happy. In fact, it seems the only thing that is going to make you happy is for your crusade against PTK to result in their total bankruptcy and closure. Enjoy, I'm sure you'll keep Pepto-Bismol in business for years to come. Me, I'll continue to read the fine print, with my feet planted firmly in reality, and know what I am getting into before I put my money down.

I am not claiming that all PTK customers are not satisfied. If you look at the satisfied customers you will see that among their ranks are those who did not receive a kit in 6-8 weeks. They were satisfied even though their kits did not arrive on schedule. That is their choice. I don't care if they have 100 satisfied customers or 100 unsatisfied customers. I am not satisfied therefore I said, "I really don't care who feels warm and cozy with their experience with PTK."

I make no rabid assaults. If by "those customers" you mean a customer who demands quality service without the lies then yes I am one of "those" customers. I read the fine print and the fine print says "normal" delivery is 6-8 weeks. Apparently it is not. If this does go to court the discovery process wil let me access to PTK company records. These records will show dates customers placed orders and dates kits were delivered. Until then I have to go by internet forums like TM, stangnet and Corral for my information.

I find it pretty strange that PTK does not defend themselves against my accusations. Maybe it is because I do have receipts and they have not made or sent out my kit just as I am saying.

I am a small business owner. My company is small, but I do a few hundred thousand dollars in sales per year. Most of my sales are of "special order" items which are custom made. No where on my invoices does it say "normal delivery such and such a time period". You know why? Because I cannot guarantee delivery of special orders. I am ethical and if I tell the customer a part will be in in a certain time frame and it is not then I will refund their money.

 

[frank woodall]

RACER LX.......I have a PTK kit with a T-67 (a/r 70) and i love it, as i do the entire kit and company. To give you my experience with PTK (Dalton in particular), I was missing a O2 plug, a 2 1/2" silicone rubber coupler and a back ordered Tial wastegate.
I called him on thurs and told him what i was missing out of my kit that i bought brand new-never opened off the Corral classifieds for $3000.oo
He verified that i had purchased this kit from the original buyer (i had his name and the original receipt) He then sent me the coupler hose, the O2 plug AND sent me a company check for $200.oo so i could by a wastegate right away. (i told him i found one local for $200.oo) a Turbonetics Evolution. I got everything the following Fri. (1week and 1 day) I was very nice and polite and had even offered to buy the stuff i was missing since i was not the original purchaser and he said "A new kit is a new kit regardless of who owns it" He told me the wastegates were on backorder for a month, I said i can get 1 locally he said that he'd take care of it and he did.
AWESOME company and Very good customer service and very high quality components.....again .....I Love It.
I too run the Holley Systemax 2 intake and 3.73 gears.

Frank

 

[92FivePointSlow]

easterisland, you seem to have a hard time grasping that "normal" is not synonymous with "every." Also, referring back to the second turbomustangs.com thread indicated above, PTK says your parts have been ordered and your piping is sitting in a bin waiting to be fabricated.

Now, if you would have spent a little more time reading the fine print, you would have found this:
"Cancellation Policy: Pro Turbo Kits charges a cancellation charge of 50% of the kit amount for any kit that is cancelled more than 7 business days after the date of a ordered kit. If you cancel your order within the 1st 7 business days from the date of order, there is a 25% cancellation fee charge."

So, considering you are requesting a refund 9 weeks after order date, I see your 50% deposit as lost. I don't agree these amounts are fair, but you agreed to it when you purchased your kit.

I could also understand them cutting you a break if it were 9 weeks and your parts weren't ordered, but they are.

I understand your pain, as it took me 13 weeks to get my kit (excluding a few select items), but chill out. Your ignorance is not their responsibility.

 

[Racer LX]

Frank,

Thanks for the info. How do you like the spool up of your turbo? Also, have you dyno'd it yet, I'm curious about the power, and what RPM range you're seeing the powerband in.

Asc and Easterisland, thanks for voicing your concerns about PTK. I'm a little disappointed reading about the situation, as from what I've seen of their kits, they look very high quality and look like a very nice kit. I'd hate to see them go the way of Incon. Seems like kind of the same deal, great product, but bad delivery of the product.

Anyway, anybody have any comments about turbo cams, gear ratios, intake manifolds, or any of the other stuff in my original post?

Thanks all,
Jim

 

[easterisland]

easterisland, you seem to have a hard time grasping that "normal" is not synonymous with "every." Also, referring back to the second turbomustangs.com thread indicated above, PTK says your parts have been ordered and your piping is sitting in a bin waiting to be fabricated.

Now, if you would have spent a little more time reading the fine print, you would have found this:
"Cancellation Policy: Pro Turbo Kits charges a cancellation charge of 50% of the kit amount for any kit that is cancelled more than 7 business days after the date of a ordered kit. If you cancel your order within the 1st 7 business days from the date of order, there is a 25% cancellation fee charge."

So, considering you are requesting a refund 9 weeks after order date, I see your 50% deposit as lost. I don't agree these amounts are fair, but you agreed to it when you purchased your kit.

I could also understand them cutting you a break if it were 9 weeks and your parts weren't ordered, but they are.

I understand your pain, as it took me 13 weeks to get my kit (excluding a few select items), but chill out. Your ignorance is not their responsibility.

I never said "normal" is synonymous with "every". Normal means what it means. I have already posted a definition of normal. Normal means that usually or typically delivery is 6-8 weeks. There is only one person who received their turbo kit in 6-8 weeks that I could find on the internet. If there is only one person in 10 who received their kit in 6-8 weeks and the others received their kits in over 8 weeks then "normal" delivery is not 6-8 weeks. Fact is I was deceived or misled. PTK broke the contract by not following through with a 6-8 week normal delivery. I am therefore entitled to a refund. Since PTK has decided not to refund my money I beleive they have stolen from me.

 

[Pro Turbo]

A few facts

easterisland,

Just as I did on TM.com regaurding your situation this will be my only post reaguarding your situation on this forum.

I am sure it makes you feel good to think that we would change our marketing or business practises based on your demands, but we have not, we have been planning for months a production stopage to correct several prodcution issues, sorry, your rants have nothing to do with our decisions.

You never let Dalton or anybody else at PTK attempt to solve your problem, instead you started a Slander/Liable campaign against PTK.

We are a 2.5 year old comapny with 13 people working here full time, in a 9000 sf facility, we sold 75 kits in 2002, 254 kits in 2003 and over 170 thru June 2004, that does not include custom or race systems, that is 499 PRODUCTION TURBO KITS and over 550 total kits in 2.5 years. The number of kits we have buillt has lead to many problems with parts, components and raw material procurment problems.

Just so we are clear about what PTK has or has not done let me set the record straight:

Go back and look at the delivery times before PTK was in business, look at how old the kit designs and parts technology used was before PTK, we have made every attempt to offer the best quality and value for the dollar and brung other companies with us in the process, which has made the turbo industry better as a whole. it could have been some other comapny, but it wasn't it was PTK.

We make mistakes, vendors make mistakes for us, we do not drop our vendors in the grease by blamming every problem on them, we are accountable to our customers, vendors and the industry!

You are one of those customers that under any circustance you would find fault, so we will move on and let your credit card company decide who is right and we will live with their decision, not your unreasonable threats or slander!

Will Evers has not told the truth about his dealings with PTK, Will Evers would not return his kit or take our kit of his car, for one resason, it is "TOP Quality"

You got yourself a good partner in your quest to slander PTK and you can exagrerate, examine, do what ever you need to, we will be here long after everybody has gotten tired of reading your rants providing one of the best quality kits in the industry.

To our valued customers, we will do whatever is neccesary to eliminate long delivery times and make the turbo second to none.

Keith Campbell

 

[easterisland]

Re: A few facts

easterisland,

You never let Dalton or anybody else at PTK attempt to solve your problem, instead you started a Slander/Liable campaign against PTK.

Just so we are clear about what PTK has or has not done let me set the record straight:

Go back and look at the delivery times before PTK was in business, look at how old the kit designs and parts technology used was before PTK, we have made every attempt to offer the best quality and value for the dollar and brung other companies with us in the process, which has made the turbo industry better as a whole. it could have been some other comapny, but it wasn't it was PTK.

We make mistakes, vendors make mistakes for us, we do not drop our vendors in the grease by blamming every problem on them, we are accountable to our customers, vendors and the industry!

You are one of those customers that under any circustance you would find fault, so we will move on and let your credit card company decide who is right and we will live with their decision, not your unreasonable threats or slander!

Keith Campbell

Slander/Libel is basically lying. I have not lied. I made a deposit for a turbo kit on 4-27-04 and you still haven't even started to make the kit 8.5 weeks later. Your company said 6-8 week "normal" delivery. You didn't meet the 6-8 weeks, you won't return my money. That is theft.
You say you are accountable to your customers? Apparently not. You won't return my deposit of $1992.50 even after you have failed to live up to the contract.
I am a fair minded consumer and business owner. I have a good grasp of what is fair and what is not fair. I have made no unreasonable requests. I have requested a full refund of the good faith deposit which I made on 4-27-04.

I do have complaints against PTK filed at the BBB of san antonio, my credit card company and the Tennessee State dept. of consumer affairs. If those don't work I will hire a San Antonio attorney. I have consulted a couple of local attorneys and they seem to think I have a good case.

 

[asc]

<jots down notes on the "Never sell ANYTHING to this person" list>

You've got a serious wake up call coming someday, and it couldn't come soon enough. Considering your misunderstanding of contractual obligations and the word "normal", I believe PTK has a legal claim to a good portion of your money, and really, REALLY hope they exercise it. Perhaps this will teach you a valuable life lesson, and next time you'll think before you leap into unfamiliar territory and sign papers with "normal" thinking it's an absolute guarantee. It's not, and I think any lawyer who sees what you signed is gonna get a great laugh, and paid by the hour for it too.

Just what kind of business are you in, anyway? This I gotta hear...

 

[easterisland]

I never said "normal" was an absolute guarantee. Normal is typical or usual. Do I really have to explain that again?
As far as I can tell from from the internet forum PTK experience posts I have read typical, usual, or normal delivery of a PTK turbo kit is not 6-8 weeks. It is much longer.

 

[crewzin]

Maybe to late

I could'nt stand it anymore! I am also a business owner and by god if (I know) I cant deliver something to my customers I call them and tell them. Its simple! People just want to know the truth. If you cant be honest then you are already doomed to fail, some just take longer than others. As consumers you should always inform yourself of every possible bit of information about what you mean to purchase. I think most of us have been taken at some time or other. I hope this situation gets resolved and that your ordeal is not the norm and that PTK does'nt keep the mentality of Tuff Titty in Texas. All Turbo companies should keep a eye on problems and fix them before they get out of hand. I know the best way to hurt anyone in business is to never spend another dollar with them and pass that info on to others. Thats how you get attention to the problems. Thats why the CORRAL is so effective at informing Stangers of where not to go. I am thankful we have this popular and usefull tool. Good luck. Later...........

 

[EVIL5LITER]

The only two cents I can throw into this is if that it's been 9 weeks, and the kit has not been completed, and it has not been started on, then I see no reason whatsoever that PTK cannot refund this guy's money.

 

[Racer LX]

Hi Guys,

Not trying to be a dink or anything, but you guys are highjacking my post here by fighting about easterisland's PTK situation. I appreciate the heads up about them and their business practices, but can we please move the thread back to technical info now?

Thanks,
Jim