[bitemeharder5]

Basic rundown of the car: This is not a typical 93 mustang street car. It's not insanely wild by any standards either. It is supercharged (passenger side with straight discharge) with a large 1000hp capable frount mount intercooler on it for now. The car is not completely finished as of now but it will be soon. As of right now it is a dart 302 stroked to a 327 with hci and a blower on it spinning max at 6500 rpms. The drive train gforce t56 (with my overdrives made of a better material and the ratios for 5th is .74 and 6th is .50) is more than capable of handling it. If I need more power I have up to a 150 shot to play with and my car is tuned via an AEM EMS. This car is unfortunately air conditioned as that is how I will like to keep it along with power steering. I plan on getting a turbo in the future but I just really wanted to see what this combo would do. I have no one sponsoring me just saved up over a long period of time.

Point: Sorry, I should first probably get to my point as to why I am considering this. I would like to go 200mph and I know this is hard on an engine. I will also need a lot of room on the airport runway to do it. I have the power and gear to do it. I am and have been for a long time doing research on dry sup setups. I was told by my engine builder if I didn't want to spend the money I could help my engine live by getting a stout oil cooler. I understand that many supercars have dry sump setups. Maybe they even have oil coolers as well. There were a lot of nice setups here:

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?t...sories&form_cat_id=117,51,363&action=category

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?t...ans&form_cat_id=1055,1052,675&action=category

http://www.drysump.com/price.htm

I wouldn't know which one to get from the two above.


I saw a lot of nice oil coolers here out there and I liked fluidyne and peterson but that's without talking to them which i plan on doing... check it out.

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?t...angers&form_cat_id=274,51,363&action=category


Worries: I don't want to block my radiator anymore than I have to with a fmic which I will have in the future anyways with a turbo. If anyone has anything to say please do so. Money is not the concern, performance engine life is. This is something I only want to do this until I reach 200mph. Then I will be satisfied. I do not want to do this in the 1/4 mile. Please if anyone says, you will be fine with a (specific or size at least) oil cooler it keeps the viscosity up and fights thermal break down then by all means say it. I am not opposed to a drysump system either if anyone has any suggestions on this please do so.

Expected use of the car:The things this car is used for is 97% daily driven (summer weekends) and the rest is 1/4 mile drag strip and open track road racing. I will take the car on long trips if I want and it is stored in the winter. It has basically the maximum motorsport catalog on it for suspension using a T/A and PHB with 315 meats on the rear and bullit/cobra disc brakes all around. Aerodynamically I might not reach 200mph without a belly pain and rear diffuser. I have a saleen wing and a cowl hood that is all. You know even to just top it out 3 times in its lifetime would be awesome to me. And yes I expect the car to last about 100,000 miles if I wanted it to. My comfort and repeated use is what is most important.

 

[Modular Depot]

First of all you are comparing two completely different things.
A dry sump is a type of oiling system that stores all of the oil in a remote tank instead of the oil pan and typically has an external, belt driven oil/scavenge pump. A dry sump doesn't directly do anything to cool the oil.

An oil cooler does just what it says, it cools the oil to prevent all kinds of problems.
You can buy a good oil cooler with everything you need for a couple hundred buck.

A dry sump system will cost you a few thousand and you will still need an oil cooler.

If you want my opinion, buy a large capacity oil pan and a good oil cooler.
Oh, and buy it all from me.

Greg

 

[bitemeharder5]

Greg,

Thanks for pointing that out I will edit my first post. As it stands right now I have a 7 qt moroso pan that has been tapped for my charger. I ran this with my 306 combo a long time ago and it worked just fine. I have a large volume oil pump and a windage tray. My point was which one of these will be best suited to help me overcome foaming the oil and maintaining engine life for my car's extra curricular activities of top speed finding, 1/4 mile, and open trackig/ road racing. I have found many oil coolers but none have a rating on them... usually I go by ratings or at least volume ratings. Size is what has been helping me. This car when all said and done... well when I top speed it will have about 850rwhp. I at least if not going to a dry sump setup which I realize they are different comparisons would like some recommendations on size of oil cooler and if it will get in the way of my fmic and radiator. Right now I have a fluidyne radiator and dual 12" ramcharger fans which I will probably upgrade along with a edelbrock water pump and 93 cobra w/p pulley those are my cooling mods. Thank you so much. Anyone else?

 

[shook0002]

If a new Vette ZR-1 can hit 205 stock without a dry sump, I'm sure yours can too, provided the engine is built correctly.

 

[Modular Depot]

Well, a dry sump is about the best way to keep the oil away from the crank to prevent windage. I still don't think you need one.

I have been road racing without a dry sump since '03 and haven't had an oiling problem yet.

If you are worried about blocking anymore of the radiator then buy the biggest cooler you can find and mount it somewhere other than in front of the radiator. Duct enough air to it and you should be fine.

It's hard to just come up with a certain size cooler that will work for you because there are a lot of variables.
Where are you going to mount it? Are you racing in traffic or by yourself? How long are your races?

Greg

 

[Modular Depot]

If a new Vette ZR-1 can hit 205 stock without a dry sump, I'm sure yours can too, provided the engine is built correctly.

Not that it matters but I'm pretty sure it is a dry sump motor.

Greg

 

[Michael Yount]

"If a new Vette ZR-1 can hit 205 stock without a dry sump..." You know someone that's removed the FACTORY DRY SUMP from their brand new ZR-1 and then hit 205 with it?

To hit 200 with reliability and the shape of the Stang, it's gonna take plenty of HP, and a well thought out cooling strategy --- which involves careful attention to aero effects. (hopefully you've taken a long look at suspension as well) Most folks mount the oil cooler in front of the radiator, and then size the radiator to deal with the heat removed from both the coolant and the oil. Alternatively, mount the cooler in a way where the hot air off of it doesn't go back across the rad. The latter is the approach I took with the oil cooler on mine. Mounted low behind the air dam, it's ducted in front and behind so the hot air off the cooler exits under the car. And it has it's own fan that is triggered off the same controller that controls the coolant electric fans so when I'm in traffic and the coolant fans are running so is the oil cooler fan.

With a/c, your condenser is certain to be in front of the rad. So I'd start looking at area low in the front for the oil cooler. Duct it so the hot air off it won't cross the rad or intercooler.

Good luck - it takes LOTS of attention to detail to safely hit 200 mph. VERY FEW folks attempt or achieve it. Careful on tire/wheel choice. And all the sanctioning bodies I know will require full cage as well as a parachute...

 

[Angry_Man]

How long do you need to be at 200mph?

 

[EvilHorace]

Have you ever had an oil temp gauge on any car before?
I have (turbo car with oil cooler) and I'd say that before planning to spend big $$ or added plumbing, try a gauge with that 7qt pan and I think you'll realize that oil heats up very slowly and usually doesn't go over coolant temps.
If you were circle track racing, you'ld probably then want an oil cooler.
Even if you can get the car to 200mph somewhere legally, I doubt your oil temp will be unusually high.

 

[My84GT4vho]

You'll need a 200 mph gauge and rated tires. I believe the car can do it.

 

[Michael Yount]

Couldn't disagree with evilhorace any more -- my non-turbo car easily had oil temps in the 260-280F range - near 300F when hammering it. Took a cooler to bring them down into the 210-230F range. Turbos just make it worse. The larger oil quantity doesn't reduce the temp -- it just makes it take longer to reach a high temp - it also takes longer to cool down. And most don't use a 7 qt. pan to hold more oil - they use it to hold 5 qts. further away from the crank to reduce windage losses.

"Even if you can get the car to 200mph somewhere legally, I doubt your oil temp will be unusually high." Someone either has little experience really hammering a car, or an inaccurate oil temperature gauge. A 200 mph run will take anywhere from 30 seconds to 2-3 minutes depending on just how much power the car has and how carefully it's geared. That's going to REALLY heat the oil up. A cooler is a must.

 

[shook0002]

Ok I'm an idiot haven't really looked at gm stuff in a while. Yes its a dry sump, but I think a forced induction mustang geared right can do 200 too.

 

[MFE]

My 5.0 sees 240+ oil temps on road course with a Canton pan, a cooler, and without turbos, less than 260 RWHP. They're lower now that I've solved the coolant temp problem, so take that as a hint too.

You can mount the cooler up in the fenderwell if you need to, and there are some fantastic ones that mount underneath the radiator rather than in front of it. I can't help you with the sizing but there's some really good threads on exactly that topic on corner-carvers.com. There are also some good threads on 200-mph mustang projects here on the corral, but none very recently. It takes a TON of power to push these bricks through the air, and significant lift reduction in the rear to put the power down. Hot Rod or Car Craft did a story on that very thing, it's worth a read. It's a tough challenge. Go for it, but go for it eyes (and wallet) wide open.

 

[EvilHorace]

Couldn't disagree with evilhorace any more

I'm not here trying to argue, just stating my actual experience and with about 4+ cars over the years, including a front eng rail dragster (had two remote oil filters and only went 1/4 mile each time out). The rails oil temp never got to coolant temp in the years I owned it. That had a modified Chrysler 383 eng, stock oil pan.
On my street cars, I used good name brand gauges (last was Auto Meter), not some 3 gauge Walmart special for $20.
With each car, I eventually removed the oil temp gauge because there never seemed to be any real point, oil temp wasn't an issue.
Pounding? They were street cars so how fast can you go? I have a led foot yet I'm not a street racer either.
The last car I checked oil temp on was a turbo car, had a remote filter and oil cooler. Turbo was water cooled too. 4.5qt pan. Oil temp never went over 220F, if even that and no matter how much my foot was in it (never seemed to matter).
If coolant temps remain constant, the only thing that will drastically increase oil temp is too much friction.

 

[Michael Yount]

Well - some differences perhaps. Comparing oil temps with dragsters (burnout and a 1/4 mile) and milers, road racers and street cars slugging through 100F+ degree traffic in August in the south is apples and oranges - especially when the cars are in Wisconsin. All my car experience has been in the deep south - and oil temps with coolers frequently get into the 260-300F range when the car is really being pounded on. A top end run like this guy is talking about is really gonna heat up the oil - especially under boost. An oil cooler is a must. No way around it. And as mentioned by mfe - enough capacity to remove the necessary heat from the coolant is also a must.

 

[EvilHorace]

My point here was to say that before spending time, money, I'd start by installing an oil temp gauge to see how hot the oil gets. An oil cooler is a good idea and may be required.
I'm curious as to the notion of being able to use an airport runway as I've never heard of anyone doing that.

 

[Michael Yount]

The Maxton Mile here in NC - Hot Rod covers it every year. They run about 7 months out of the year the last Sat in each month. Standing mile on an abandoned WWII air base landing strip. Google 'east coast timing association' for details. I've seen 1100HP Vipers hit 225, turbo Hyabusa's hit 235.....and vintage single cylinder Norton's hit 75. All exciting in their own way. Lots of safety requirements -- anything above 175 I think has to have a parachute, roll cages required above certain speeds, etc.

And my point is - if he's serious about a 200 mph car he won't have to check first - he'll need both the gauge AND the cooler.

 

[ustahava67]

Kato And I ran a N/A iron head Boss 302 at Bonnevile in 85. 2 way average was 194 and change(5 miles down & 5 back). this was with a wet sump and no oil cooler. We dumped the oil between runs. We were running Torco straight 50. It came out like water. I think the car could have benefited from a cooler. But it's not absoulutely necessary. The road racing/street driving/turbos will increase the need for oil temp managment, but for a simple top speed run it's not a necessity.

 

[Kato Engineering]

it is all a matter of TIME.

it takes 18 seconds
to cover a mile distance
at 200 mph.
this does not count ant time or distance to build up to that speed.

if you hold a certain engine up to the maximum torque r.p.m. for more than about 20 seconds, the thing usually beats up the oil pretty bad, and heats it up a lot... not even considering all the air that gets into it...bubbles etc....
the engine CANNOT run on air in the oil...
so, after hurting countless engines geting close to the previous record of 174 mph...
set and raised our own record three times that week...
and after 6 or 7 runs we ulltimately ran 194 plus...
the engine WAS then WORN OUT...!!!!
I changed some things inside....
....yes it was still a wet sump.
...no cooler.
...no vaccume pump...
...spun the terrible thing 8600 to 9200..........
....maybe there was luck on our side.

most of the n/a engines such as this will have to make about 600 h.p. to do this.
but when the aero drag is over about .36 C/D...
you will need DOUBLE the power to go the same "flying" speed.

most fox bodies will have actual .39 or worse areo drag coeficients....
there are RULES that the body has to conform to to be LEGAL....

and a cage and fire supression equipment ETC ...ETC... ETC..

car carried LOTS of ballast... since no wings are allowed at all...
...maybe was over 4100 pounds...

it is not easy...

using a dry sump and or an integral oil cooler does a lot of good.
most legit dry sumps will in fact have "sort of" a oil cooler because the "foam defusser" tank in a vertical shape will have enough surface to help cool the oil.
other types of "electric or belt drive coolers" will also have a gain, allthough they will consuime power.
hook up the gage to a dash 6 or 8 oil pressure line to the block and see what REAL pressure that you have after a full throttle run over 45 / 60 seconds and see what is left...
....usually not much...!!!!


MAXTON MILE is well documented and there is a website...
......do it if you got the BALLS....

 

[Kato Engineering]

we should have used a oil temperature gage....
..... BUT I DID NOT WANNA KNOW WHAT THE TEMP. WOULD HAVE BEEN......
If I would have seen the temp.. I would have shut it off and stopped..!!!!!!




can anyone really drive a engine on the street that makes a legit 2 horsepower per cubic inch....

normally aspirated...


NO