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CHP/CPR 347 (LONG)

24273 Views 198 Replies 33 Participants Last post by  Cougar5.O, 
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I started this thread a while back and I never finished what I had to say. I needed to cool down a bit. I'm not sure if this is the correct sub forum to post this in so feel free to move it. Thank you.

I purchased a 347 short block from CHP. It vibrated from the start. Upon disassembly at 500 miles by a professional mechanic; various issues were found. The rotating assembly was off a total of 64ozs causing the imbalance and bad vibrations. It then came to light in the past few weeks that my harmonic balancer, flywheel and pressure plate I sent to CHP, was never used in the balancing process. The owner did admit this after months of going back and forth. Metal debris was found between the main bearings and caps. Main bearings were gouged and ruined. The thrust bearing was worn on one side as if it were never squared. The front cam bearing was gouged as if a tool had slid across it. Tobi at CHP stated that camshafts are sharp. That was his explanation for a bearing that should have been replaced. The mains had never been align honed and two caps were tapered. I was told by CHP that they only align hone an engine if it needs it. The bores were tapered upon inspection by my machinist as well. Maybe this explains the terrible oil consumption that the engine suffered from. It was also discovered that one of the head gaskets may have leaked and that is on me. I didn't check the head surface for trueness before installing. It was later discovered that my new AFR head gasket surface was .005"-.01" from true. The heads are now resurfaced. CHP consistantly brings up that the leaky head gasket could have bent rods and such. Very true but what does that have to do with their bad machining and balancing? I didn't complain to CHP that the head gasket leaked. I complained about the bad vibrations, machining and balancing. CHP attempts to railroad the facts at every turn.
Also; my new harmonic balancer rubbed the bottom bolt boss on the water pump. The rubbing between balancer and water pump is common place with aftermarket parts and some paint from the water pump transferred to the balancer. Google this rubbing and you'll be rewarded with many posts/threads discussing it. I was told by CHP that the slight rub damaged the balancer thus causing the vibration. The balancer is fine and being used on my newly rebuilt 347. I received the balancer rubbing excuse repeatedly until the Martin of CHP admitted that they had messed up the engine balance. That balancer rubbing was my bad but did not cause any damage to the engine. I also had an issue with two freeze plugs blowing. My mechanic did a cooling system pressure test as well as the blue die test to see if any combustion gasses entered the coolant. He found nothing. I'm still baffled why the tests showed nothing but I do believe the head gasket seeped as I never had to add coolant.

CHP offered to have me haul the engine from Phoenix to California so they could put it on an engine dyno. I would leave the engine there and drive back home. I would then drive back to California after the engine was repaired, pick it up and drive back home. Being such a long haul; I would have the expense of a hotel room during both trips along with fuel and meals. The other choice given to me by CHP was to strap the engine to a pallet and have a truck haul it there and back at my expense. Nearly $500.00 each way. My thought process is two fold. If CHP couldn't build the engine correct the first time; do I trust them to do it correctly the second time. I also considered the cost of the two options given to me by CHP. Ship it or drive it there....Both are not cheap alternatives. I was originally given the two alternatives by the employee who sold me the short block. I have all emails where I was asked to ship or haul the engine at my expense. I decided my money was best spent having a local and unbiased party re-machine the block and balance the rotating assembly. I was eventually contacted by Martin from CHP who argued and denied the whole mess even though I presented facts and photo documentation. I received a very condescending attitude. It was as if their employees could do no wrong. After months of email correspondence; CHP admitted partial fault and asked what I wanted. I asked for $1000.00 to cover the re-machining and balancing of the block/rotating assembly. This didn't begin to cover the [email protected] of the engine nor any other expenses that I paid out. At this point I was unaware that I was speaking to the "Boss" at CHP. The boss attempted to lowball me stating that they only charge $80.00 for a balance job to anyone who walks into the shop. I challenge anyone to find a shop that charges so little for a balance job that can take hours to do. At this point I was going back and forth with CHP on a fair settlement. The boss (Martin) then stated that their company's return policy differed from what I was told by Tobi and that I should have known this. So at this point; I'm suppose to know that an employee/salesman from CHP misquoted the correct return policy and that supposedly; I could have shipped the engine to CHP at no cost to me. The customer service staff is there to assist me; the customer. If you tell me that shipping or hauling the engine to CHP and back is going to cost me; I believe you. Who would know the policies better than the salesman?

I also provided the contact info of my local machinist to Martin at CHP. Martin refused to call the machinist to collect info on bore, crank and mains. I'm not a machinist and I sometimes could not explain how measurements were taken and what certain measurement values were. Martin had the chance but instead chose to insult my machinist on several occasions. I offered to have Martin or one of his reps inspect the block and it's parts at my machinist. Again; he ignored the opportunity.

CHP also enjoys railroading the actual issues by bringing up the fact that I called Tobi at CHP for advice on some elementary things. Now I've built a few engines in my 55 years but by no means am I a pro. I've asked plenty of questions here as well. CHP has chose to take those questions and spin them around to show that I didn't know what I was doing. What CHP doesn't tell you is that the engine was assembled by an ASE certified mechanic who is a award winning hot rod builder who has even been featured in magazine articles. I'm bragging but he is a very humble guy. I'm just curious by nature and bent Tobi's ear to satisfy my curiosity. Tobi was great to me up until the engine came apart and I sent photos of bad machining, metal debris from assembly, toasted bearings, pics of measurements being taken, etc....I took a bunch of pics that are undeniable evidence. I've saved every email and they often prove that CHP customer service are far from truthful. Tobi also attempted to railroad the issues in the beginning by stating that CHP/CPR did not build me a long block so they are off the hook if metal found it's way to the main bearings during head and intake install. I always get this defensive attitude from Tobi and Martin. If I exposed the engine to metal debris; how did metal debris get sandwiched between the main bearings and caps? That can only happen during assembly of the small block.

CHP/CPR also enjoy bragging how they build trophy truck engines and such and there is no way that their guys screwed up. I heard this over and over and in the end Martin from CHP/CPR admitted fault with the balance job and issues with the mains. He never apologized and I guess that really bothers me as I think it should.

I'm sorry that I've taken up the bandwidth but I've had enough of CHP/CPR's non-existent customer service. For those who may think I'm biased and such....I'm a repeat customer. I have another CHP 347 with the 5.315 rods and originally had the old Probe SRS 10666-030 pistons. I was very happy with that engine and it was just rebuilt to go into my son's car.

In the end; Martin offered me $707.00. I asked for $1000.00. Martin and I went back and forth via email for a couple of weeks. Martin's attitude pushed me to the point of considering a legal avenue and I told him so. His offer of $707.00 was pulled and here we are. Am I pig headed for not accepting Martin's offer after months of receiving the worst customer service ever? You betcha! It is the principle of the matter.

You are all free to judge me as you please, but I know in my heart that I have typed the honest truth here. I still have all of the photos, emails and damaged parts.

Buyer Beware folks. People deserve to know who provides great customer service and who doesn't. Somehow these companies get away with it. I'm so thankful that I sent the engine to a local party who is unbiased. To this day; my machinist does not know who built the short block originally nor did he ask. He did get a chuckle out of Martin's insults though.
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Interesting thread at this link. CHP had the opportunity to fix the issue the first time. I agree that mistakes are made but this thread rang a bell.

1,900 RPM engine vibration, new 331 stroker - Vintage Mustang Forums
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Tobi;

Please post the email where you suggested that I follow the company policy. I have the email showing that you did not deny that I would have to pay for the hauling or shipping both ways at my expense. There was absolutely no mention of any shipping refund if the engine was found faulty. Shame on me for listening to your suggestions and believing you instead of reading the company return policy.

P.S.

I'm not calling you out like some illegal street racing gangsta. I'm posting facts. You already gave up your name in the first thread I started. I mentioned no names at that point.

Again; you and Martin had the opportunity to reach out to my machinist. It only takes a phone call. He could have sent you pics and measurements instead of me trying to be the go between.
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Mark O'Neal said:
There was no metal in the mains when it left their shop.
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Were you there? Did you inspect my rotating assembly? How does metal debris get sandwiched between the main caps and back of main bearings? Of course you would defend a company you once owned but you are now in AZ and not at CHP.
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Mark O'Neal said:
Why is the guy that built the short block responsible for the damper rubbing on the water pump?
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I took responsibility for this. I'm curious how this has any bearing on the poor balance job, poor machining, gouged cam bearing or dirty build. Could an out of balance rotating assembly cause the balancer to move a fraction? Just enough to take paint off of the water pump? I almost forgot. The timing set was installed without a thrust washer behind the cam sprocket.
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K
Wow you sure did post a lot.

With the exception of Summit Racing and Jegs, whose customer service is absolutely the best in the business, I learned the hard way about mail order engines and transmissions.

I understand that you are ptfo, but making money, and keeping the money is the name of the game.

You're best bet is to stay with your machinist, stop contacting CHP about the engine and cut your losses. I don't know what the truth is but you rarely find it on the internet.

And if you want a real engine, something with absolutely no issues, start with a dart shp block and contact Merkel Racing Hauppauge, NY. Scott will set you up right.3 engines so far from him. Perfect and honest every time. He's local to me and I only deal with him.

But if you trust the machinst you have now, stick with him. Good luck
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I am finished here. I can post more pics or a slew of emails to make my point, but in the end; folks are going to form their own opinions. This would have gone so much smoother if CHP did not point fingers at me from the beginning and treated this with the old business motto of the customer is always right. It's really aggravating to be drilled by customer service and getting nowhere with a resolution until much time has gone by.

On a good note; the 411 FE I built 6 years ago is still running strong with no issues. Flat tappet cam no less! The best part; it was machined by a local guy in his backyard shop.

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AtomicCoupe
fasterthangas said:
AtomicCoupe said:
I always wait until it’s a light mist outside with a good stiff breeze before I pull my engine outside and work on it. My cousin who’s done like 7 LS swaps told me the mist helps settle the gaskets into place.
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Don't be so quick to judge. The engine was not built outside. I'll post pics.
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I was just trying to lighten things up, I should’ve minded my own business. I apologize. Right or wrong you are clearly upset and I hope everything works out between you and the people involved.

And who am I to judge, I’ve done my share of driveway mechanic work!! Not my proudest moments
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AtomicCoupe
And it was a good opportunity to make fun of Chevy guys.
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Mark O'Neal
fasterthangas said:
Were you there? Did you inspect my rotating assembly? How does metal debris get sandwiched between the main caps and back of main bearings? Of course you would defend a company you once owned but you are now in AZ and not at CHP.
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Of course I didn't inspect it,. Neither did CHP....and that's the point.

The instant you let someone else crack it open you lost your leg to stand on.
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rob
Really sucks what happened.

You made 400+ with shorty headers? What headers and size h and exhaust?

You probably posted, but Are you currently running up and running?
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T
I never said your friend could not build your engines, assembling your engine and being an engine builder are different things. I have no problem helping customers but if he was a qualified engine builder why did he/you need information on checking correct pick up to oil pan clearance, verifying pushrod length, etc? Reread what I said about our mechanic.

Look an EPC-30B freeze plug, we have a tool just for the freeze plugs and it was not damaged. You/your engine builder had coolant seeping into the cylinder and adding enough pressure to the system to blow freeze plugs. There is no grasping, you had a leak, you tried blaming us while it is obvious the installation/inspection was no good. I am attaching a picture below of the cylinders and witness marks where water sat for a while.

Oh yeah, I remember you saying they tested the blocks as is, nothing on torque plates and told you the cylinders were out of round, makes no sense to me but OK. I will stick to our dimensions, works for the 15+ engines we ship a month and even more blocks we machine for other builders.

Just about anything can be installed improperly but why ask me, you said you did not trust us.

Right, so it does not matter how many engines we build, that they have been race proven, only thing that matters is what you say, no thanks!

No, the location of the shop does not matter and neither how long they have been doing it. Some shops become stagnant and never grow for a reason yet we keep growing despite your accusations of our machine work and customer service.

Of course I remember the guide plate issue, you once again asked for my help, how could I not. One thing is obvious like a casting issue that is clearly visible, another is a solving a lot of small problems that cannot be diagnosed over the phone.

Eric, why don't you post where I denied you bringing the short block, you called me and we talked and then you said you were taking it to your shop.

Nice picture of the shot blasted main caps, and debris ran through the bearings but I did not see any debris in the back, what I did see are main caps cut at an angle, not something we did here because the block didn't need to be align honed – we only do that to blocks that need it because it will cause a loose timing set and potential issues like you see with the taper in the mains that your machine shop created when cutting the cap- then you pay for it, also they used the ARP bolts that were also sold to you I'm sure as something "absolutely necessary".

So what you are saying is that forcing the damper would never have affected the thrust, also that adding ARP main bolts and cutting the caps unevenly or having a coolant leak like the pictures show(which you claimed was our fault) would not have affected the engine, got it.

So you say you are not a machinist but that anything I have said has no value and I would really like to know when I said we don't make mistakes, we are human but you don't stay in business long without a good product and customer service.

Same machinist and engine builder that built yours also built these but nobody else put their hands on them...

Jeff Jones has had no failures since he came to us for engines, it's no wonder other racers have as well and these are built and handle sustained high RPM loads.


CPR Engines: 1,000+ Horsepower Hydraulic Roller LS 468

Tech: Building The Motown LS Engine With CPR Engines

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMRlZ3RhilVT-cyYpzHS6Ig

And last but not least the main caps that even Stevie Wonder can see were clearly cut at an angle and rusty cylinders that were apparently also out fault. Not trying to bring the dead back but too busy to stay on forums.

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Well Tobi; once again you grasp for straws and insult the small businessman. How kind of you.
If you'd bother searching; you'd see that I posted that stained cylinder pic months ago on this very forum. So much for that jab. You're running out of straws to grasp.
Pictures do not lie. Why do none of my core plugs look as beat up as the one pictured?
I was at the shop when the main bores were being bored and measured. The first run of the align hone was conducted with caps torqued and not one cut. Two caps were tapered. Plain and simple. The picture I posted was the first minor cut of one cap and the results of the align hone run through again. You'd have to be blind not to see that the hone only touched a portion of the main. Why is that? Two caps were tapered. I requested the ARP main bolts. I wasn't comfortable with reusing the factory bolts. Is that a bad thing?

You have the machinist contact info. Man up and call. Ask for Trevor. I have no issue posting that email. As a matter of fact; It also shows that I would have paid both ways truck shipping or driving over 1600 miles at my cost. Maybe you can show the good folks here, the email stating that I need to follow company policy and a quote of you stating that policy. Just once Tobi....or will you ignore this request once again?

Again; what does the balancer rubbing or possible head gasket leak have to do with CHP's poor machining? I could care less how many engines you guys sell; it doesn't account for the poor machining on my short block. Maybe I should post the email where you assured me that my balancer, flywheel and pressure plate would be used for balancing after I shipped it to you. You dropped the ball on that one; Tobi.

I called you to verify the oil pan to pickup gap after I read about it online. I have never had to do that. My buddy knew to do it and I jumped the gun by asking you. I explained myself and my curiousity earlier but reading comprehension must be lacking on someone's part.

Going back to two of the core plugs blowing; why didn't any more blow afterwards? If the coolant passages in block were under pressure; what changed? Why did the cap never bypass? Also; you are now calling a well respected tuner a liar as he was the first to test the cooling system. PM me and I'll provide his contact info. Rob is an ASE certified mechanic as well as a Sema featured forced induction fabricator.
So far you have insulted everyone involved with my engine here locally yet you know none of them or their capabilities. None of them judged nor insulted you, Martin or CHP. None of them hopped in this thread to insult you guys either.

Pictures don't lie Tobi. I still have all of the damaged and dirty bearings saved in my garage. The same bearings that you and Martin cannot and won't explain how metal debris got between them and the main caps.
Maybe you can explain where the thrust washer for the cam sprocket went? Or; will you ignore this question as well?
I answered Mark's question whether torque plates were used to measure the bores many posts ago. Plates were used as they always are.

I know nobody is perfect and I'm the first to admit my faults. What pissed me off was the months it took to get CHP to consider that there was an error on their part. I'd rather have my teeth pulled before going through that crap again.

I walked away from this thread and it was soon to drop off the page. You now brought it to the top once again for all to see.

I'm now enjoying my car once again. That's what's most important to me.
Life is too short for this drama and I'm guilty for being sucked in once again.
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Mark O'Neal said:
We know.......


But we still love you......:x
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Thank you
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tmoss
so much BS and finger pointing in this thread......... when you split final assembly results and things go #### up, the fingers come out and owners are left scratching their heads......... bottom line, send it back to the builder, can't do any better or worse than that if they are honest..........
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tmoss said:
so much BS and finger pointing in this thread......... when you split final assembly results and things go #### up, the fingers come out and owners are left scratching their heads......... bottom line, send it back to the builder, can't do any better or worse than that if they are honest..........
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Totally respect your opinion and theory. I have unfortunately been screwed over several times doing this. The shop says can't be anything major, bring it back and we will look at it. They say yep it's screwed, never seen that happens before, we'll cover the broken part but not the items related or the extra labor or tuning. The job is done half ass or set aside in a corner. Had a race bike left at a shop when owner took off to another province. Had an engine built for money owed, don't ever trade owed money for labor, took years and never finished 100%. Had engine held for ransom of $1000+ in pile or $6k repaired. Had a car back 3 times for new body, quality got worse, took it as is. In all of these cases, they were new turn key orders that failed. It's part of the game, gotta pay to play. Once they leave that shop they are used. I believe the OP has an engine he is happy with now from another shop and original supplier will continue building the way they like.
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tmoss
caveat emptor, but even that is hard - my good friend David Williams (Fastlane Classic Cars) has been screwed BIG TIME, twice by local "engine builders/tuners" - bottom line is it's a crap shoot..........

COP TZR said:
Totally respect your opinion and theory. I have unfortunately been screwed over several times doing this. The shop says can't be anything major, bring it back and we will look at it. They say yep it's screwed, never seen that happens before, we'll cover the broken part but not the items related or the extra labor or tuning. The job is done half ass or set aside in a corner. Had a race bike left at a shop when owner took off to another province. Had an engine built for money owed, don't ever trade owed money for labor, took years and never finished 100%. Had engine held for ransom of $1000+ in pile or $6k repaired. Had a car back 3 times for new body, quality got worse, took it as is. In all of these cases, they were new turn key orders that failed. It's part of the game, gotta pay to play. Once they leave that shop they are used. I believe the OP has an engine he is happy with now from another shop and original supplier can keep building the way they like.
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JV106
tmoss said:
so much BS and finger pointing in this thread......... when you split final assembly results and things go #### up, the fingers come out and owners are left scratching their heads......... bottom line, send it back to the builder, can't do any better or worse than that if they are honest..........
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Yup! Once you hire them to do it you’re married to them. For better or worse. Get crappy with them once they start to fix it and you will likely be told to come pick up your stuff or worse. If you choose to take it elsewhere after it fails you better expect the next guy to tell you how messed up and incompetent the original guy was.
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K
And if you do send your engine back, because of poor assembly/dirt/ whatever it's going to the back of the line because they already got paid for the job and they aren't in the business to lose money by stopping production of someone else's paid for product to check out your engine and their supposed mistake(s)...which they won't find because you're 4 states away.

Stay local. Ask around at meets, friends, word of mouth past experience whatever. You know the old way before the internet. Avoid this hassle.
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T
One thing you guys forget or least have not dealt with are guys that are actually in the same hobby as yours so it is not just a business for us, we could be making money doing other things. So we have our own performance cars, race cars, etc and are not looking to screw people as Eric would have you believe. I am glad he sent us pics while blaming us for certain things because it was quite obvious what happened though it is hard for anybody to diagnose issues over the phone.

Actually Eric I have not belittled or insulted anybody but as the old saying goes "People judge how they live" Guess that is why you tagged us as "CHP drunks!" We are a small business so once again, I have no idea what you are reaching for except trying to make us look bad.

Right because we let the main caps be so far off, if that were true there would have been a spun bearing or oil pressure issues. Yes, the other shop added ARP bolts, did they not tell you it might affect the housing dimensions, obviously not.

Read the last post about company policy, you keep jumping around.

Nothing is wrong with engine parts rubbing for you, just not for us. We obviously would have wanted to see the issues you spoke of, once again you lied about "company policy" then "cost of shipping" then "did not trust them" it's obvious you are "grasping" and you have a right to.

Once again I never insulted your people, reread the last post again and the one about our mechanic.

There are many things we can't explain because we did not take it apart, did you consider that?
It was much easier to say, hey, you guys did crappy work, pay me.

Huh, we talked about getting the engine back to figure out what is wrong now you are saying we denied wanting to fix it? That makes no sense, we want our engines running and happy customers. You stated you had a vibration and there was no idea for me to diagnose it over the phone.

We have nothing to hide so it being on the top is not an issue for us, in fact a couple of customers from The Corral have placed orders with us during this post, we just won the N/A Holley LS Fest Dyno challenge and have more LSX orders so we are good. It's funny how you try to dismiss once again our success but there is a reason we are around and will be for a long time and will put our machine work against anyone's. Here is a video just for you about our bores, dry to avoid any inconsistencies.


And our Dyno win on a simple N/A stock LS hydraulic roller lifter LS

https://www.lsfest.com/bangshiftnos-dyno-challenge/

You were never sucked in to any post, you are the opening poster.

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shipracer
I just went through this same nightmare. Stay away from CHP.

**** happens we all understand that, but that's all that happens here at CHP.

$7,000+ to CHP for short block build, assembly, install into my car.. they did everything.
$3000+ into parts ontop of the CHP fee
$1200+ in towing fees. Bring the car back and forth to CHP.
$2000+ engine pulled, transmission dyno'd, torque converter open and inspected, flex plates inspected.

The engine always had issues from the start that CHP keep blaming everything but looking at anything. It was running extremely hot on freezing nights on the freeway (with 70mph winds in 60 degree weather).

The engine lasted less then a month, 1200 miles. Crank was walking so bad it wasn't safe to drive.

Instantly I tow it back to CHP. They confirmed the crank was moving and things had to come out.

4 weeks of them telling me they were going to pull the engine out every other day. Eventually, I realized it wasn't going to happen. I had to pay to had the car towed back out of there. Pay another shop to pull the engine.. this isn't even half of it

From there CHP starts to blame everything but look at nothing. They were admit it was my transmissions fault ( this trans has 100k miles 3 engines?). The trans is fully built zero issue transmission. So I follow CHP lead as I have. I have the transmission, torque converter, flexplate tested at ART CARR transmissions.. awesome guys over there.

Zero issues with the transmission, Torque converter or flex plate.

From there CHP said it has to be my tune, there's too much fuel intl the oil they claim. So being the document and detailed person I am a out this car. I provided to them the two black labs oil analysis reports which show no fuel in the oil, I had multiple tuners including their recommended guy review my datalogs, I had no misfire, no smoke, no check engine lights.

So at this point, CHP has done nothing. Literally nothing 6 months later... They offer to rebuild the short block but not refund.... still out thousands of dollars but better than nothing..... Ha nope. A couple of months after them not being able to source parts and just being total dooche bags.. the owner now decides he's not going to rebuild the block... How unexpected and out of their pattern of doing nothing.. shocking ha

So knowing CHP is not a company of their word or product. I did the next thing to prove it was their engine. I bought a Used stock engine for $600 90k miles on it. Had it installed in the car, with the same tune/trans/torque converter.. everything identical except the upgraded flexplate CHP had me buy. ARTCARRs trans says it's just simply not needed for my use case and they don't believe it had anything to do with the engine failure.

The car is running two months now. Almost 2k miles with a stock used engine with zero overheating or issues like th CHP block had. I've been bouncing off the rev limiter and shifts like a mad man trying to break it..

I'm local to CHP. Avoid them at all costs. I can't imagine someone getting a mail ordered block, that CHP didn't assemble and install.. just two more places for CHP to blame their issue on

There is so much more details and bullshit not included in this review. Please feel free to reach out to me for any questions or concerns.

It's about a full year from when I paid CHP. Nothing has been done at all. Ever since the engine failure.

I couldn't get CHP to tear down the engine, so I paid Greg and the MMR guys to tear down. MMR guys were awesome.

There's alot of forum posts and people with similar stories. I've met alot of cool people being burned from CHP. Best I can do is share my story and keep moving on. Let them play in the ****.
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