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Discussion Starter #1
Whats up guys. Putting my new engine in next week and I'm just looking for some insurance. I was going to put ARP rod bolts in before I found out we used those cracked rods, and no one makes a rod bolt kit for us yet

So I figured knock sensors would help. I just need the thing to last me 6 months, so I need something like knock sensors as
a back up. Can you buy Cobra knock sensors from Ford and hook them up to a GT??? I know the MSD is supposed to be kinda sensative, but what all does the install consist of??? Could I do it all myself??? I think our engines are tapped for the
knock sensors.

Anyone???

Rob
 

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The block is machined for them, so you can install one on each side. The wire that connects to the left knock sensor should run to pin 32 and the right sensor to pin 57 of the PCM connector. I don't know whether or not the wires are installed in the harness or not, but my guess is that they aren't. You will also need a Cobra PCM or have the PCM code changed to enable the knock sensors.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Damn that seems like a lot. What about aftermarket ones. Is there one that works independently from the ECM??? I may have to do the Cobra jobby otherwise
 

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It depends what you are trying to do with it. If you wanted to set it up to turn on a light on the dash or something you could use an independent system. If you are looking to have the PCM actually back off the timing when there is detonation you will have to hook them up to the PCM. I am planning on doing something like this to mine so I can hopefully avoid the situation you recently encountered. I don't know if the GT PCM is even capable of monitoring these sensors, but the Cobra one would work. Good luck. :cool:
 

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well...

..to answer your second ?...Frpp does make better con-rod bolt...stronger & re-usable up to @doz times...dont have price on me but I kinda remember @$15.00 set.
Randy Stinchcomb
 

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There is a boss for a sensor located directly in the center of the engine underneath the intake manifold.

Here are your challenges to get that working.

1. The sensor you need will have to be resonant to the 4.6 block displacement. So it will have to be a Ford or OEM replacement sensor.

2. The boss in the block is not consistently sized. Remember there are many minor differences between years and castings.

3. Installation. The plenums on the later intake manifolds on 4.6's don't provide room for the sensor in the stock location. Could be wrong on this one, I never actually measured the clearance but it's very tight.

4. You can wire the sensor to the stock EEC all you want, but if there are no provisions for it in the computer or software, it ain't gonna work.

5. Tuning can be a problem. Most aftermarket computers require some adjustments for them to work correctly. Even the best of them using DSP have a hard time telling the difference between detonation and normal supercharged combustion. Even the stock Cobra knock sensor systems tend to get in the way of a properly performing motor. Things like drivetrain vibration of anykind can cause it to come on. Some are just indicators, while they don't hurt performance they are generally cheap and don't work very well... i.e. MSD Knock Guard.

These problems and others I have seen on the dyno with these boxes have caused me to give up on this project.

Good luck, keep us posted on what you find.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'll take your word for it Ed. I really don't have enough time to figure something out, so I need to move on to something else.

As far as the stronger FRPP rod bolts, that is very interesting. I will be calling them tomorrow to order some if they in fact do have them. THanx for the info. It will make me feel much better to have some descent bolts in there. All it takes is the removing of the oil tray! And a little bit more of piece of mind ya know.

As far as the knock sensor provisions in the computer, even if it doesn't have the provisions I'm sure Fordchip.com could get me a program so that they could flash it onto my computer so that it would work. BUt I don't have time. I need something by this week.

Rob
 

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Knock Sensoring

I was told that the EEC-V that comes on the GT does not have the knock sensor electronics soldered to the PCB so if you want to knock sensoring you will need the Cobra computer, some of the F series trucks are supposed to run a single knock sensor as there is a boss in the middle of the vee for one.
You may want to look into the John & Shirley system ( a DSP system )or build your own as Harris has a chipset that the Chryco Daimler may have looked at the only hangup there is that a prototyping kit costs at least $200 wheh I tried to get a hold of one to play around with.
 

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Ed:

We came out a knock control system for the '96-'98 four coil cars a year ago. I believe the unit could also work on the '99 and later coil-on-plug cars, but we need a SoCal beta install vehicle to verify that.

Despite a good review from Earl Harris, we've sold exactly one four coil unit, and have had only a few inquiries about the eight coil version. Still looking for beta install site.

Build it, and they will come. (Sounds of crickets chirping)
 

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BoostedGT said:
As far as the knock sensor provisions in the computer, even if it doesn't have the provisions I'm sure Fordchip.com could get me a program so that they could flash it onto my computer so that it would work. BUt I don't have time. I need something by this week.
It sounds like you found a motor. Great!

As a result of the issue with fuel pressure and the 99-up cars... We are adding a new feature to our programming...

The MIL will now come on if fuel pressure drops below 30 psi. It should give more than enough warning to guys who lose pressure during a run.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I guarantee you if someone buillds a good knock sensor system for the 99+ GT's that everybody and their mother will buy one. I mean, I know you cannot make them perfect, but have one that doesn't come on everytime you hit a stump in the road.

And costs less than friggin $500!!!!

And Ed, I called Ford Racing and they said they do not carry a better rod bolt kit for the 2v 99+ GT's. Where do I get them then????

Rob
 

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Knock sensors are definately not the answer to detect/deter detonation. The mod motors are a very noisy line of engines, and the knock sensors have proven to be more of a hinderence, than a savior, when it comes to racing and performance.

The knock sensors have been the culprits in downgraded performance due to the sensors picking up external noises, and pulling timing, making the engines fall on the heavy faces.

Case in point, look at Bob Cosby's 99 Cobra. He was having spark/timing issues, on each shift, causing the car to stumble and lose performance. Issue was the knock sensors were detecting the noise on every shift, from the transmission, throught the drivetrain. The knock sensors then, through their very function, were pulling timing and causing a loss of performance.

The only solution is a good tune. Not a mail-order, off the shelf tune. Reliable gas, a good tune, and you will have greater chances of a trouble-free engine.

JMO.
joe
 

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rod bolts...

..the part # is M-6214-B351. I called the order line this morning and FRPP dis-continue them for 2003. I did find a dealer on the locator in Texas that had 1 set left and they are South West Ford 1-800-256-7933
Randy Stinchcomb
 

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Thanks Randy.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Wow, thanx Randy, I really needed to get a better set of bolts. I'm going to call them up first thing in the morning dude. I don't know how to thank you. I mean, I realize this does not mean I can handle 500rwhp, but anything that will help ease my mind is great!:)
 

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J&S Electronics

J&S Electronics makes a closed-loop knock sensor/timing retard system. I had a conversation with the owner (via e-mail) a while back, and he said that the system currently will not work with the "coil on plug" ignition we currently have.

HOWEVER, he did say that if you convert to the older four coil ignition of the pre-99 cars, it should work great. He was in the process of trying to find a "guinea pig" vehicle to test on. This was months ago, so he's probably much farther along, and may even be prototyping a coil on plug unit.

If he ever gets the COP unit working, he'll make a mint...check it out:

www.jandssafeguard.com
 

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OK, according to the boys at Fordchip.com last time I talked to them here is the deal with Knock Sensors in a GT.

1) The programming for knock sensors is in the GT calibration, however, it is not activated.

2) You can use a 1994 (year?) Lincoln Town Car knock sensor in the 1999 GTs, however there may be clearance issues with the intake.

3) You then have to wire the knock sensor to the appropriate pin on the EEC-V harness so that when you turn on knock sensor parameters in the EEC it will be looking at the right pin.

4) Knock sensors are not a good idea on cars with forged pistons. The piston slap from the forged pistons can cause false knock readings, thereby killing performance.

The best method for engine longevity is right foot conservatism. ;)
 

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One of the contributing writers for MM&FF has invited us to the dyno later this week. He's shooting for 1000hp from a small block with a turbo, using an EECIV controller. Maybe I can get him interested enough in the 4.6L project to get us access to a '99 or later vehicle.

Our DIS knock controller was designed for the '96-'98 engines, with coil packs. To install the system on a coil-on-plug car, the system will need to be wired for waste spark. The stock coils will still be used, but they will be wired in pairs.

If the firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8, then cylinders 1 and 6 will be paired up, then 3 and 5, 7 and 4, and 2 and 8.

Loose fitting forged pistons are noisier than the stock ones, but I think our system can deal with it. If the knock controller could help keep the stock pistons together, that would be even better.

An SAE paper (900488), written by GM knock sensor engineers, states that the fundamental knock frequency is based primarily on cylinder bore diameter. GM makes sensors in three overlapping frequency ranges, covering bore diameters from 70mm to 115mm. Their 6.0kHz sensor looks ideal for the 4.6L engine, with 90mm bore. They are rather large, though.

The Chrysler 2.2L turbo engine had an 87mm bore, and also used a 6.0kHz sensor, which is much smaller. I don't know if the parts houses still carry them, but I have quite a few in stock.

The GM sensor is available with three different thread sizes:
1/4 NPT tapered pie
M10x1.5 mm straight thread
M12x1.25 mm tapered thread

The Chrysler sensor has a 3/8 x 16 thread

I found this Chrysler replacement sensor on the web: NAPA Echlin DKS100
And somebody else had a photo:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
:confused: :barf:
 

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John at J&S said:
One of the contributing writers for MM&FF has invited us to the dyno later this week. He's shooting for 1000hp from a small block with a turbo, using an EECIV controller. Maybe I can get him interested enough in the 4.6L project to get us access to a '99 or later vehicle.

Our DIS knock controller was designed for the '96-'98 engines, with coil packs. To install the system on a coil-on-plug car, the system will need to be wired for waste spark. The stock coils will still be used, but they will be wired in pairs.
Hey John!

So...what's the prognosis? Will us COP guys see a J&S controller? If so, when? What is involved in setting up for "waste spark," whatever that is? :)

Thanks for taking the time to post; if you get the COP unit going I'll be in line to buy it!
 
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