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Discussion Starter #1
I want to run an emissions legal head, but want the flow of the AFR205s. Anyone port the 185's for better numbers?
 

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I have AFR 185 with a stage 3 port, they flow 20 cfm more than out the box 205's and keep my motor in the rpm range I want!

185 ( 1500-6500 )
205 ( 3000-8000 )
 

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I'm curious, are you building a emissions legal combo?

If so could you please give me a rundown of what your planning as I will be moving to Texas (Houston area) in a few years and have been researching what would be legal. Thanks :D
 

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mustanggt5091 said:
I have AFR 185 with a stage 3 port, they flow 20 cfm more than out the box 205's and keep my motor in the rpm range I want!

185 ( 1500-6500 )
205 ( 3000-8000 )
IMO, if you have appreciably increased the port volume, you will have most likely decreased port velocity and will therefore require more RPM to take advantage of the increased airflow.
 

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My ported 185's

flow ~295 intake and ~220 exhaust at .600" lift from what i remember right.
 

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Andrew said:
IMO, if you have appreciably increased the port volume, you will have most likely decreased port velocity and will therefore require more RPM to take advantage of the increased airflow.
If you have a good head porter then you can get more airflow with minimal increase in port size, so port velocity is not affected much
 

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Discussion Starter #7
mustanggt5091, May I ask who did the porting on your 185s? Would you recommend them? 20cfm more than the 205s is really some good flow numbers.

racenutz, I'm more at a planning stage right now. But yes, I want to do an emissions legal setup, as with this economy, you never know when you may have to move.

I was thinking a 347 stroker. And then taking care of the obvious visuals.. intake, heads, headers and keep the smog stuff intact. As far as heads, go, I think the AFRs have the best potential for power and still emissions legal. For the intake, I'm thinking of a victor 5.0... now thats not emissions legal, but I can swap that out prior to the testing. And just run a shorty header. Maybe the AFM 1 3/4" shorty... a little pricey, but if it passes inspection, that might be ok. oh, and the cam... well thats pretty much going to make or break the deal, so I'd consider a custom grind from HTM or Ed C or BuddyR or from a reputable shop. These guys are making some great power, and still passing the sniffer.

I guess one of the main reasons for this post was, I wasn't sure how much porting could still be done to the 185s. So, I guess there is some potential still left in them.

Currently here in Texas, I run 58cc gt40x, edelbrock rpm, 65mm TB, C&L 73, and lunati 215/224 cam. And, bbk ceramic longtubes with cat h-pipe. I had no problems meeting the emission testing here which is on a dyno. The car makes 295rwhp/322tq.

Thanks for the info,
 

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paul351w said:
If you have a good head porter then you can get more airflow with minimal increase in port size, so port velocity is not affected much
This is true to a degree, however the above post claimed numbers approx. 50 cfm greater than a stock AFR185, you don't get that without some definite increases in port volume.
 

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I thought the 205s flowed over [email protected]? Me digging for my issue of MMFF.....:idunno:
 

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Did a search and found this post.

I have my 185's torn apart and am seriously considering cleaning up the CNC ridges.

I have some experience porting Twisted Wedges and Victor Jr's but I don't want to screw up the shape / critical areas of these heads.

Is there anything to gain by just cleaning up the ridges and bowl, or do you have to do short side work?

Thanks for your time / responses.
 

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The 205's flow 306/231 at .600". My ported 185's flow 305/228 at .600" with a 200cc runner, but just those numbers don't do my heads justice. It's the low lift numbers that are impressive. There was still more left in the heads, but velocity would have gone down. These heads beat the 205's up until the .600" range by 5-10cfm and then they are still within 5cfm. My cam is .565/.574 lift so the .600+ numbers are meaningless to me. Later down the road it might matter, but they still flow enough (314 at .700") for what my 347 can handle.
 

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It is pretty easy to match peak flows, but you cant use that as a guideline to a power increase. flow does not equal power. Flow enables power.

By duplicating the peak flows, you are disregarding low lift flow response as well as port velocity (it all works together).

It is far better to give up some peak flow and gain good port velocity and cylinder filling with correct valve events, as opposed to just throwing peak flow numbers at the motor.

buddy Rawls
 

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why go through all the drama unless you got the 185's for free?

mustanggt5091 - Post your numbers, would be interesting to see as I have never heard of porting them out that much without serious changes to valves, and not to mention $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 

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The itch to modify is too great.... have to scratch it.

Trick is, different heads respond to different porting methods.

Victor Juniors seemed to like laying back the short side and concentrating work there (way too much port volume for their out of box flow = lazy).

Twisted Wedges seemed to have decent short side turns, but responded well to raising the roof. They equaled some out of the box TFS-R's with less port volume by just cleaning up the casting and raising the roof about 1/16".

AFR's have great velocity, but the cutter marks are a necessary evil in keeping them cheap (super cheap actually). So I want to clean them up with a very non agressive double cut carbide bit at a low speed (about 2000 rpm). Don't want to change the shape of the port or mess up the short side turn, because the stock short side will support up to 700 lift which means it has some bad ass speed going around that turn!

My guess it that some other Corraler (non professional type) out there who loves to tinker has probably already done this and is willing to share what gains he found by doing so.

Thats why these forums are so cool!
 

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So 65 mustang, how will any of these heads do with a common intake bolted up?

Will the intake taper angle match?

Will the entries match?
 

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The Vic Jr that I have is pretty close to a Fel Pro 1250, but the AFR 185 has these rounded corners that needed to be squared off to match the intake (otherwise you have these nice little dams in the corners).

The Vic Jr head is perfect for a Fel Pro 1262. Edelbrock at least makes sure the entries are nice and square.

The Twisted Wedge was pretty close to a 1250, but I noticed a lot of core shift. When I ported those heads I opened up the entry to a 1262.

I'm not sure what a stock Vic Jr intakes flows (230-240?), but I would bet it's less than any of these heads.

On the same flow bench the Vic Jr heads (stock) went 259 at .600", Twisted Wedge (with casting cleaned up) went 248 at .600", and the AFR went 264 @ 0.600" and a whopping 274 @ 0.700"!

After my porting attempt(s) the Vic Jr's went 286 @ 0.600" and the Twisted Wedges went 279 @ .600". I just finished cleaning off the CNC ridges on the AFR's tonight and haven't had a chance to take them to the shop and pay to have them flowed (need to buy a used flow bench, more economical in the long run :) ).

That's really why I searched for this topic. What do you gain by knocking off the CNC ridges? It's easy work and as long as you don't go crazy with the grinder (I use a Makita GD0810C set at ~2400 rpm) you won't have any problems with removing too much metal.

Something I thought was interesting was the port volumes of the AFR 185 and Vic Jr heads. My wife and I measured the AFR heads after the ridge clean up and we consistently came up with 181 cc (using a Pyrex 100cc graduated cylinder). We then took the same graduated cylinder and measured a port on the Vic Jr. Came up with 213 cc. Both numbers were lower than I expected and just showed me that you don't have to remove a lot of metal in order to pay big dividends (case of Vic Jr's). It also seemed to indicate that both ports are slightly smaller than advertised. I've read that the 185 is closer to 177 stock.

It's amazing that the AFR head is over 30 cc smaller but delivers Vic Jr crushing cfm. What's the research budget at Big E being used for?

In answer to your last question, I have no idea about intake taper angle matching. Don't know too much about cleaning up intakes, but I'm more than happy to listen to any advice that you may have about that. The trouble that I'm running into with the intake is I need some sort of adjustable stand to bolt the intake up to. I have these really cool adjustable head stands from Knight Racing Products and they make head porting a breeze. You can wheel the head around into whatever position you need it to be in. The intake is a real mother ****er to manipulate and runners 1,4,5,8 are hell to get at.

Any advice/info that you or anyone else is willing to share would be cool. Thanks.
 

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thats because you are placing too much emphasis on the volume. Port length effects volume greatly. case in point i the TFS twisted wedge head. for a 170cc head it flows like gang busters. what you dont see is that the port is about 3/8" shorter, so in comparison to the longer port heads it really acts more like a 180-190 cfm head. Also the dart heads. for a 200 cc port they suck. That port is almost 3/4 longer than stock. It acts more like a 160 cc port.

The missing piece of the puzzle is the port cross-sectional area. that is your real comparison. that equalizes all the players. without this consideration, port volumes only serve as a bragging tool.

Buddy
 

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What Buddy said............. Only time to really compare port volumes is when comparing the same head(maybe before/after porting). It is the CSA that determines rpms,and velocity. As for taking out the cnc ridges, don't expect to much gain, if any. If it is a carb. application, then I would leave them in there, to help atomize the fuel.

Later, Greg
 
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