Ford Mustang Forums banner

Bought a 5.4 swapped mach 1..... so many questions

2860 Views 30 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  Nitrous Al
So I just bought a 03 Mach 1 with a 5.4 swapped in about 225 miles ago. I'm new to this whole thing and need some guidance from experienced people. Trying to get a feel for the power its making (previous owner who had it built said it made 318hp running rough then got it running good and made another pass on the dyno) also what mods are going to help me the most. BTW i did do research before posting this. I just cant seem to find what I'm for, only pieces.

So far what i know about the car:

4v 5.4l out of 01 navi
Naviator heads
Stock Mach 1 cams (paperwork says Navi cams but prev. owner says he had a shop swap them... No paperwork though)
Manley Pistons and rings
ARP Head studs
Ford racing intake (unsure about specs)
stock 19lb injectors

This is what prev. owner told me:

"Forged bottom end: (forged crankshaft, forged rods, forged pistons.)
Rebuilt navi heads with Cobra cams, Cobra jet intake, dual 75mm throttle body, 90mm mass air sensor. SLP Mufflers"


Any suggestions on Tubular K Member, Coilovers, Long tube headers (found the pacesetters but not sure what size everyone is using), alternate intake?

I appreciate any help at all!!!
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Wow, what a mess. Is this a direct transplant from a navigator? Or did he have the forged bottom end put in? And if so, who did it? Who degree'd the cams and where is the info from that? Running rough? Why.

Don't go spending money on suspension or anything else until you get the motor squared away. I'd first visit a competent tuner who knows mod motors and have them evaluate what you have. Off the top of my head your injectors seem too small, I'd love to know if you have enough fuel on the top end, and what your AFR is set at. A good tuner can put your car on a dyno and read it like a book. But it would be helpful to have as much info about the builder, cams, etc, for them to work with.
Wow, what a mess. Is this a direct transplant from a navigator? Or did he have the forged bottom end put in? And if so, who did it? Who degree'd the cams and where is the info from that? Running rough? Why.

Don't go spending money on suspension or anything else until you get the motor squared away. I'd first visit a competent tuner who knows mod motors and have them evaluate what you have. Off the top of my head your injectors seem too small, I'd love to know if you have enough fuel on the top end, and what your AFR is set at. A good tuner can put your car on a dyno and read it like a book. But it would be helpful to have as much info about the builder, cams, etc, for them to work with.

Thank you for the reply! The engine was built at a performance shop, they did the swap and the dyno tune. The Forged bottom end was put in at the time of the build. The shop did the cams when the swap was done, he said that he had another shop swap the cams and redo the heads. He couldnt find the paperwork and i called the shop he had it done and no luck on a paper trail. After the swap was done they dyno tuned it but he lost the sheet (along with most other paperwork. -_- I was thinking the same thing with the injectors, too small. I have the paper from the shop who did the swap, maybe that will help.

Also there is a hesitation shifting at high rpms, thinking a few different things. Possibly a throw out bearing or maybe not enough fuel top end???

Attachments

That invoice is hard to decipher. At least now you've verified 'some' work was done and they didn't just transplant an engine. I didn't see a crankshaft and rods? The stock crank should be fine at up to 500rwho.. but the rods are suspect.

It just seems a lot of work for 300rwhp.. assuming it's wheel and not SAE..

Hesitation at top end? Not a TO bearing. A TO bearing would be making a grinding/thrashing noise (different levels of volume depending how far gone) that stops when you push the clutch in. A hesitation at top end.. start with fuel. Make sure the fuel filter has been changed recently and if still a hesitation go to a competent tuner and let them tell you what's happening when the power falls off. Probably fuel. Probably Mach 1 injectors for a 4.6L engine being used on a 5.4L you're trying to get more power on. I'd guess a stock 5.4: should have 24lb injectors. If you get a quality set you could go bigger, say 60lbs and it won't cost you more.. but your tuner would have to immediately adjust for them.. Just because an injector can put out 60lbs, doesn't mean it can't be tuned for 24lbs. Ask you rtuner about thiis. As your power peaks he'll pick up different things.. fuel, MAF, air restrictions, ignition.. A good tuner is like your lawyer.. if you pay for their advise.. take it. No one will know better about what's happening with your engine.

Also.. get an oil analysis before doing anything. Make sure the guy you bought this from didn't know something was amiss with the new build. Check out these guys.. they've been good to me: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/ If there's a problem, don't spend a dime more until that problem has been taken care of.. and that might mea a fresh build. Just check it first so you don't go throw a lot of money on things you think you need.. only to find the engine is junk..
See less See more
The oil test is definitely something to do. So the engine is under warranty for 2 years, so looks like there is a year left. going to try and take it up there and have them check it out, maybe have it retuned. Just an FYI going back to the hesitation, the clutch pedal shakes as well. Something I'm having trouble is figuring out whether that is in fact a 75mm throttle body. I dont think the car had the intake/TB on when it got dynoed. Shot him a message to confirm but something is up. BTW I'm currently overseas so my buddy has my car, so its hard to tell exactly what exactly happens with the hesitation and shaking in the clutch pedal.

Attachments

See less See more
An oil analysis is something I do religiously after a new build, especially during a warranty period. Detecting problems early is key to not losing it all.

No idea on the TB, but if it wasn't on the car it's an issue with tuning. I hope.. really hope.. you're buddy isn't out there pushing the car at the top end. Fuel issues might be the number one way to ruin an enginne, right up there with detonating.. You become starved for fuel, your AFR drops, engine goes poof. I'd tell your buddy to park it until it can get on the dyno and you know what's going on.

When I was stationed overseas (Japan, Korea) I got into the local flavor of cars. One story I tell is that while in Japan, back in the 80's.. all the cars where white or black. Mostly white. A car with color was unheard of. But when you'd go out at night for fun and were bleary eyed, it could take a while to find your car. So I went to the auto shop and found leftover paint and sprayed my Toyota Crown Royale an obnoxious green. And it stood out everywhere. My gosh it stood out and people would stare. That Crown Royale was a turbo charged monster.. one of the best cars I ever owned. It straddled luxury and performance like no other car did. But the odd thing, it was in the next year that flashy color Japanese cars became a thing.. soon they were called tuner cars. I can't help but think I started something.. :) People think I'm making this up.. but the other day I found this picture... That was my campsite when I took my Korean GF camping in Japan..which wasa bit odd I suppose. If the weather was good we took the Harley. Check out the local car scene, who knows.. you might start something.. :)

Attachments

See less See more
So the car currently still has the break-in oil... Is it worth it to get that tested or just to wait?

I have confirmed that the TB and MAF were swapped out after the tune. So am I wrong to think that the extra air flow is leaning it out top end? It doesn't seem that noticeable at idle, low RPMs so I hear. I just figured out that the A/F can be read on the digital trip meter so I'll have him check that out as soon as he can. I already have plans to take it back to Premier to get it re-tuned. I hope that solves my problems.

He has done a few pulls to make sure everything seems good. Nothing too much though, the car has been sitting most of the time so no worries there.

Wow Ive seen only one of those in my year of being here in Okinawa, Japan. The car scene here is minimal and mostly drifting now, I'm more into straight line racing. Definitely a cool picture!
"Couldn't find the paperwork"= its a stock replacement engine. Thats bull#### and I hope you paid in accordance with it being a stock replacement and not built. If you are new to modulars... honestly I'm going to say this was one of the worst ways to jump into the 4.6L world and is probably going to be a nightmare for you unless you have the $$$ to pay a legit modular shop/tuner to take it for a few days and go through it 100%. I would not take it back to either of these shops if they "couldn't find the paperwork".
"Couldn't find the paperwork"= its a stock replacement engine. Thats bull#### and I hope you paid in accordance with it being a stock replacement and not built. If you are new to modulars... honestly I'm going to say this was one of the worst ways to jump into the 4.6L world and is probably going to be a nightmare for you unless you have the $$$ to pay a legit modular shop/tuner to take it for a few days and go through it 100%. I would not take it back to either of these shops if they "couldn't find the paperwork".

I have the paperwork from the engine being built and swapped, I would not buy a car like this without paperwork. the paperwork that couldnt be "found" was the navigator cams being swapped with Mach 1 cams and the heads getting redone. Not as worried about that though.

It's a 5.4 4v not a 4.6

I attached the invoice on my first reply
5.4, 4.6... same thing, just a few more cubes on one. I mean modular motors in general.
Did you see one that color? It would be cool to think my old car is still cruising the Island. Some guy in Naha bought it before I left. It was one of the only legit 400rwhp cars on the island and everyone wanted it.

That's a campground north of Torii station and Yomitan Airfield.

I don't think the TB is your issue. But what I think doesn't matter and what you think doesn't matter. It needs to go on the rollers of a good tuner and that's what it will be. Numbers won't lie. Though, oddly enough plenty of people ignore them.

Yes, definitely get the break in oil analyzed. Write it on the bottle, "break in oil from new build at xxxx miles" and see what they say.

Try not and get offended.. this is a bit of a mess and some will give you a hard time about it.. though it comes from a good place.
Unfortunately it was black but I'll keep an eye out for it, there is a big car show coming up. I will have to check that campground out, maybe get a few pics and post them.

Yeah that's first on my list after the new wheels/tires get put on tomorrow (tires were junk and bullit wheels are hideous IMO). hopefully in two weeks he can take it over there and get it figured out.

So my plans for the car are to make 500-600 rwhp, is it worth it to even ugrade to a tubular k-member/A-Arms? its only reducing about 64lbs.
It would be so wild to see that car again..

Torque Thrust wheels look good on older mustangs.. some of them. I really don't like them on newer models.

Are you sure you want to do new tires and then have it sit? Tires have an finite life span, only so many heat and cool down cycles before they loose their mojo, and they'll get flat spots in days. I've had to store my 99' for years at a time and I went to lengths to keep flat spots at bay, but never did beat the age. I learned to just get new tires righit before I started driving it again.

You'll also want to be careful with your tank.. removing and flushing it out before starting the car after it's been stored will pay big. I've got some stories about when a Ford Dealer said they did that for me.. they were supposed to go to my storage a few blocks away, tow the car back, flush the tank and lines, and get the car ready for me. They charged me for all that and other work I wanted done.. but drove it from the storage and never flushed the tank or lines. I ended up getting stuck while on the road, two sets of injectors, a ticket for excessive smoke of all things.. anyway, the insurance took care of it after a long fight..

Saving the 64 pounds is significant. More significant is the improved geometry, ability to use different A arms, coil overs, etc, etc.. and more. A K member is something you should consider doing as part of a system. As part of a system there is value there.. especially if you can now use components you couldn't before. But as a standalone.. your money is better spent elsewhere. Suspension period should be done as a system. Not front, not rear, but both.. And your body should be stabilized with preferably a matrix brace, f&r shock tower braces, and whatever else is called for. I went with Kenny Brown.. he designs and produces his stuff here in the USA and more importantly, he races his stuff. This is a lot different from crap that's built in China or Taiwan or somewhere, not part of a comprehensive system, and has never been proven.

Many guys buy "a k brace" or "coilovers" or whatever.. just so they can say they have one like it gives them street cred or something. Only install what you need to meet your objectives. No more. And only spend on quality proven gear.. nothing else is worth your time and especially your money.

500-600rwhp is totally doable, especially if they built your short block right. I'm making over 500rwhp out of a stock DOHC 4.6L and 10lbs of boost. A 5.4L, depending on your heads and assuming your shortblock is solid.. and say 9--10lbs of boost.. AND an upgraded fuel system. should easily get you to 600rwhp provided the tune is legit..

Why 500-600? What are your goals? Drag strip, road race? Street? You can have a lot of fun on the street with 400rwhp. You certainly don't want to end up in jail or dead.. these guys with 1000rwhp street cars.. why.. Unless you regularly also use them on the track somewhere it's a waste. Many just want a certain power level because it sounds good Don't be that guy. Have a purpose and meet that purpose with style by making sure your power is reliable, well cooled for all conditions, and the driveability is such that you can enjoy the car.
See less See more
Wow, yeah my buddy has been trying to get me away from a k member and all that, says its a waste of time for my needs.

But what i really want to do is make it a street car for now with the intention of taking it to the track whenever i can. I don't want to modify it too much (the body) to keep the classic Mach 1 muscle car feel. but i may want to make it strictly a drag car and still be able to take it to shows on the weekend. I don't know how to still keep that in play and be conservative in my spending.

So my buddy is in the Air Force as well, he's driving it around every now and then to keep everything in working order. he deploys here in a few months, so its either going into government storage while I'm overseas (they take care of it apparently... starting it and keeping it off the wheels, etc.) or it going into a storage unit on jack stands. These tires I literally got where the cheapest summer performance tires i could get to last me a few seasons. because im going to get wheels for drag on my old wheels.
See less See more
You might want to try an exercise of adding up what it would cost to get you to that car you want for the track. I wouldn't be surprised if this exceeded the cost of a new GT Mustang with both 1&2 performance packs. Which would you rather have?
Yeah i definitely don't want to make this a 30k investment, and I want to keep the Mach 1 feel to it. I've decided just to keep it a street car, and I want to put a blower on it in due time and obviously supporting mods OR just build it N/A. That's most likely the extent of it.
For K member... unless you need the clearance or really REALLY want the weight savings I say just do a set of bushings/balljoints in the stock A arms or get the BMR A arms with spring perches and call it good. The stock K member geometry is actually very good, some quality bushings/a arms, springs/struts, CC plates and a full refresh of the endlinks/balljoints/swaybar brackets will go a lot longer of a ways to get you where you want to be than the K member. And if you are dead nuts set on it and I'm assuming this car will be for drag with that heavy ass 5.4 iron block up front... UPR mild steel with spring perches, the BMR A arms with spring perches and roll. If you want to go coilovers... well UPR is good but they are noisy. MM makes the best stuff but the weight savings on their K is minimal over the stock stamped unit although it is strong AF. MM is more for handling too, same with the Steeda K. I'd love to do the Steeda K myself with the BMR arms but at that point I'm near $1500 plus needing to refresh some other stuff and the full MM K package is $1800... so... It all depends on your budget and what you want to do. BUDGET that will do well is to go get some Termi Bilstein takeoff struts, send them out to Bilstein to be rebuilt, springs of your choice, BMR A arms, stock K, MM or Steeda CC plates and there you go for the front end. The back end... well for a drag car the 4 link can do fine in a straight line but corners... hell no. 3 link or IRS or just stick to the 1/4 mile and go easy around corners on the street. There is the Steeda 5 link too but that looks like a nightmare to install even more than a TA/PHB. I did an IRS swap with the full bushing upgrade from FTBR by myself in a garage on my back with a floor jack and hand tools.
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 1
There's too many unknowns. You have to put it on a dyno to find out where you stand. They probably just swapped in the '01 Navigator motor and called it done. If they cared and did it correctly, they would have all of the receipts and paperwork. Porting those heads and swapping four cams is a big job. Good luck with it.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
There's too many unknowns. You have to put it on a dyno to find out where you stand. They probably just swapped in the '01 Navigator motor and called it done. If they cared and did it correctly, they would have all of the receipts and paperwork. Porting those heads and swapping four cams is a big job. Good luck with it.
This, this, thisx1000.

"Its done but I don't have receipts" = walk away 100% of the time unless you are getting the car for a price where you can make a decent profit parting it or fixing it and the title is clean.

Dealt with too many morons who "had a shop do it" or "trust me its good" or "I was told by the previous owner"...

Nope.
Yep, far too many people don't realize the value of having a knowledgeable shop do the work. They just buy parts and have Fred at the local Jiffy Lube slap them in. This goes to my personal opinion most people aren't really about performance, but rather just being able to say they have this or that part..


OP, do check out Kenny Brown's offerings. I like MM too, not so much Steeda though I have a set of their original forged wheels on my car.. Kenny races what he sells and when you compare the parts side by side you'll come away impressed. His K member for instance, the features:
AGS 3.0 Light-weight Tubular Front K-Member

Strongest, Best Engineered, “Bolt-In” K-Member available on the aftermarket!

Adds 1” to wheel base for incredible balance, steering, grip and braking
Lightweight, strong design takes 40 lbs. off front of car
Increased anti-dive for better braking performance
Stabilizes camber curve in cornering
Reduced roll center migration in cornering
Maximizes tire contact patch to maximize grip
Competition proven - available for street, open track or race

The Advanced Geometry Tubular K-Member optimizes Kenny Brown’s “fixed strut” advanced geometry suspension design for superior handling, grip, and braking with a distinct European sports car performance feel. The Tubular K-member reduces overall weight by 40 pounds over factory and improves weight distribution and balance by extending the wheelbase forward by one inch improving the roll center envelope, camber gain, toe curve greatly improving the handling performance. Designed to be used in conjunction with the Kenny Brown Tubular Front Lower Control Arms and coil-over shock package.
See less See more
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top