Ford Mustang Forums banner
34601 - 34620 of 34698 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,861 Posts
That's very frustrating I'm sure for the effort you have put into it. Fingers crossed from me, I hope it seals right the next time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,448 Posts
I hope that insulation helps. But watch it closely, I think that's the least dense foam type, supposedly it will degrade fast under the hood. The dense stuff cost a little more, but it was a darker black, and relatively very firm to squeeze it. I bought both types when I renovated my laundry room 15+ years ago. I used the dense foam under the house on the hot water lines for a ways, and the other type beyond that to get close to the kitchen faucets. It all looks great under the house with no damage coming from heat etc, but on a car, I think the dense version should last a lot longer.
I know you've talked about where you bought yours Don, but I've forgotten and don't feel like searching through an almost 2,000 page thread. lol. Where's a good local resource for that stuff? I'm looking to get something as close to the factory black foam on the high pressure line of the fox A/C system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,065 Posts
It goes something like this....

Well, don't use a gasket. Just use a gasket maker or RTV.

Ok - how does it work?

Well, clean both surfaces, just apply the gasket maker to one surface.

Ok - how much do I apply?

Well, it depends. You want enough to seal, but not so much that it oozes out into places it shouldn't be.

Ok - how much do I apply?

Well, no one really knows. So we guess.

Ok - what's next.

Well, you let it "skim over" for a bit before tightening.

Ok - how long?

Well, it depends. Temperature, humidity and how confined the space is all affect that.

Ok - how long?

Well, no one really knows. So we guess.

Ok - any special procedures for tightening?

Well, you want things snug. Tight enough to seal, but not so tight that you over-compress the goop. And it also depends on how long you let it "skim over" (see above for clarity).

Ok - how tight is that?

Well, no one really knows. So we guess.

Ok - what if I guess wrong and it doesn't seal?

Well, you have to start over.

Ok - I assume clean up is easy?

Well, no, not really. Clean up is a pain in the ass.

Ok - and if I screw up the clean up and don't quite get it clean?

Well, there's a decent chance that it won't seal again.

Is there a particular brand I should use?

Well, there are several. Most people recommend whatever they've had success with and they'll tell you not to use anything else because anything else is ****.

Is there a particular brand I should use?

In Australia and the motorcycle shops just about anywhere, they swear by Threebond 1215. They'll tell you anything by Permatex sucks. Here in the states - Permatex RTV's rule, but you might get some differing opinions about whether to use red or black or copper or "The Right Stuff" (which many swear is just the black stuff in a different applicator). They've never even heard of "3bond - whatever that is." Oh - unless it's a Honda. Apparently Honda's are made of something entirely different and if you don't use "Hondabond" it will leak. Oh, and if you've used it on Honda's then you usually feel that Permatex and Threebond 1215 are crap and useless. So you can use the Hondabond on other stuff besides Hondas. Then there's Loctite 515, 518, Aviation (for planes - has to be good) - which leads to Versachem and Permatex Aviation.....


Tongue in cheek. Of course, I'm already in all the soup I mentioned above trying to use Cometic gasket material and Versachem non-hardening sealant.

But it was therapeutic to write it all down.

Summary - everybody uses what's worked for them and recommends that to others. So it's all over the board.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 93Cobra#2771

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,695 Posts
That sounds pretty much spot on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,861 Posts
Ditto. I have heard of all of those, I too only have limited experience with the Permatex brand and a couple of others. I learned from my best friend, and I'm sure he got from another person, that being before 1978. Things change all the time, I bet most of those products will work.

I don't think it's important to wait for the sealant to cure much at all, just like an intake, put the parts together when it's still fresh, not skinned over. The substance should be able to cure as well by any method, but letting it cure and then crushing it some random amount, I'd rather rely on the substance strength alone. I'd torque it to the proper level not long after assembling the parts and getting all of the bolts snug. For an intake a little thicker than the gap is typical, so for those say 3/8" bead for a 1/4" gap etc. You don't want any significant amount pushing out inside the water pump. That's the only tricky part, how much to use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,861 Posts
I know you've talked about where you bought yours Don, but I've forgotten and don't feel like searching through an almost 2,000 page thread. lol. Where's a good local resource for that stuff? I'm looking to get something as close to the factory black foam on the high pressure line of the fox A/C system.
I bought the foam insulation at Home Depot or Lowe's, they carried a lot of it many years ago. That was an interesting way that quoted Explorer guy covered hi drier. The insulation has adhesive along one seam, so he stuck one section onto a different piece. That let him increase the diameter of what he was covering, it looked natural on his round drier, with the thin seams of the adhesive barely visible. I recall the adhesive was very strong too, if that can survive the heat under hood, even the zip ties wouldn't be mandatory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Goodson

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,065 Posts
I’ve used rock wool strips spiral wrapped, with a bit of metal wire to hold them in place. And then silicone wrap. Both available at Home Depot last time I used. Both hold up to underhood temps. And the silicone sticks to itself - so stretch when wrapping. It looks flat to satin once installed. OeM appearance to my eye. The intake tube.
Motor vehicle Car Automotive design Vehicle Automotive fuel system
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,695 Posts
Blast from the past for the Fjord!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Michael Yount

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,695 Posts
Saw that last week. Classic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,695 Posts
Alternator back on and cobra is running. However, I don’t think he put the right guts back in. I suspect he put 70a back in instead of 140a. Why? Here’s my voltage reading when idling at 1000rpm, AC on full blast, headlights, fog lights, mkviii fan wide open. In other words, full load. Guess ill be taking it back by there. Grrr.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,861 Posts
Ouch, I'm sorry to see that if they didn't put the alternator together right. I'd call that 12.2v borderline low also. With a low load giving you 13.5v or more with a full battery, that high load we'd prefer to see at least 12.5 to 13.0 volts.

I hate to ask too, where did you go for that job?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,065 Posts
Do you have a reading from before Richard? 12.2v at idle with everything on wouldn’t surprise me.
Rectangle Slope Font Plot Parallel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,695 Posts
Do you have a reading from before Richard? 12.2v at idle with everything on wouldn’t surprise me.
View attachment 1087146
I want to say it was low 13’s with high load. 12.2 is way too low. Every time my AC compressor came on and the DCC kicked fan to max, it pulled it down to that reading. Even while driving at 2000rpm. Old one, the volt gauge barely wiggled. It was jumping two letters when it hit full load. Is that table accurate for all alternators or specific ones?


Ouch, I'm sorry to see that if they didn't put the alternator together right. I'd call that 12.2v borderline low also. With a low load giving you 13.5v or more with a full battery, that high load we'd prefer to see at least 12.5 to 13.0 volts.

I hate to ask too, where did you go for that job?
Definitely too low. Want to say the original voltage was around 13.2 at full load.

Maryville alternator. I did specifically tell him it was 140a. My bet is he completely forgot and stuck 70a guts in there. The mkviii fan alone will cook a 70a unit with the load it puts out.

Another day in the life. Lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,065 Posts
"Even while driving at 2000rpm." -- ah, new information....

Well, that sucks. In that spirit - head off, front cover off. Can't see any reason for the leaks. Frustrating.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 93Cobra#2771

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,065 Posts
Starting to develop some sense of 'grounding' with regard to formable engine seals. Many, if not most, newer engines/transaxles have many of their components sealed without traditional paper or composite seals. Turns out if you're in the business of producing hundreds of thousands/millions of components and are already buying hundreds/thousands of robots anyway, buying a few more to handle your sealing duties is the way to go economically. What allows this to work so well from the factory is: 1) A robot that can place a very precise amount of sealer in exactly the right place repeatedly in a continuous bead. The amount is engineered so that it can't spread where it shouldn't. In fact, in many engines, the parts are actually designed to contain the squish of sealant so it doesn't get where it shouldn't - PROVIDED the correct amount is used. 2) Everything is controlled - temp, humidity, clamp force, curing time, cleanliness of parts, smoothness of surfaces, etc. Doesn't take too much intellectual hp to figure out that if you can't repeat that process at home, you may find your seal compromised for a variety of reasons either in the short term or the long term. And of course, if you're successful repeating that process at home, you simply got lucky. Worst case -- sealant squishes into some place it shouldn't be and causes much bigger problems. Some engines have a "cam cradle" that bolts to the head - holds the cam journals, cams, etc. This is a machined surface seal designed for a particular type of sealant. Perfect for a robot. But 10 years/200k miles later during a rebuild, get a bit too much sealant in there during re-assembly and it can squeeze into the cam journal - cam journal failure usually follows and that metal (AL and steel) now travels through the engine.

The Right Stuff from Permatex was developed for a very specific need. Repair shops needed something that would allow them to re-assemble and almost immediately put liquids back inside. They can't afford to wait around for hours/days while an RTV or anaerobic compound cures enough that they can add liquids. Permatex says within a minute or two of reassembly, you can add fluids - and I found varying versions of that timeframe. Having said all that -- opinions vary.

The preferred approach on anything that's not "quick cure" is 1) get the right amount in the right place (your best guess); 2) give it 10-15-20 minutes to set a bit (again, best guess); 3) install the part with even pressure all around the sealing surface. Number 3 is just a few words - but it's extremely difficult to do in most cases. Get one side in contact a bit sooner than the other side and you may squish too much of your sealant out of the way. Luckily both the front cover and the water pump have several studs they have to slide over....that makes it easier to have it land on the sealant evenly all the way 'round; 4) hand tighten in the proper pattern; 5) snug a bit more with tools - monitor that you have a bit of squish all the way around the part; 6) let it sit until it cures completely - at least hours, in some cases 24 hours or several days depending on the sealer; 7) then do final tightening/torquing. My contact in Australia (recommended the Threebond 1215) said his minimum is at least 24 hours of cure time -- preference is 4-5 days. And on start up, leave the radiator cap off so that during the first heat cycle, it can't build pressure. After a heat cycle or two, cure is definitely complete. Give each fastener a final bit of tightening and then you're good to go.

A properly engineered gasket is a better mousetrap for the home mechanic. Yet, sometimes.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,861 Posts
That would support using one of the faster curing sealers. I've heard that about the Right Stuff, but have never needed to use something really fast after sealing the part. I guess I should try that for the experience sometime.

For your odd application that would be helpful to have done it before as much as possible. I like the wide sealing surfacos that water pump, that should help a lot for the sealant to get a good bond. I might consider trying to grind a tiny groove in the mating surfaces, preferably the WP. But how thick is the timing cover, could it accept a shallow groove of say 1/6" or less?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,065 Posts
I don't think it's an odd application Don. Just a 3/4 size version of a Windsor front cover and water pump except just one coolant opening between cover and block. Very, very similar.

I don't think I'm going to be able to "get there" on using just gasket maker of any type except at the top of the front cover where it seals to the bottom of the head. No choice there. But on the front cover to block and water pump, just too many variables and unknowns for me to wrap my head around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,861 Posts
I just meant the location where the uneven gap is making the sealing task odd. I still hope it's a simple matter of having a great sealant fill the gap and cure well enough to hold it for good. I like most different timing covers better than the Windsor Fords, the thin surfaces and the very long bolts make the job PITA unless the parts had been apart very recently. I look forward to rebuilding a couple of Cleveland engines, those have a basic steel timing cover/plate, against the cast iron block. So the bolts aren't that long and shouldn't corrode and break so badly.
 
34601 - 34620 of 34698 Posts
Top