Ford Mustang Forums banner
1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,471 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So this is combo isn't special. I went backwards. I put a stock 93 long block in. stock heads, cam, factory bore. the only thing aftermarket on it is trick flow r series intake with 75mm tb, old Motorsport shorties and old Motorsport h pipe 2.25"

change bore and stroke. 10 seconds

running the same fuel system from my 600+ sc ed 408

im running 75# injectors with np just increased the low slope number as per the simple instructions. took 5 minutes

i have the idle set at 850. again following simple directions took 3 minutes

set base timing. we all know how long that takes. 5 minutes

Didnt touch fuel or spark tables. didn't even look at them.

car runs beautiful. as expected. my 408 is on the stand. im looking through it, changing heads, cam, looking for about 700..

My 408 should be back in the car around june 1.

No dyno retune needed. Pro m pays for itself again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,409 Posts
No dyno retune needed. Pro m pays for itself again.
I pay $400 for a dyno tune. I don't swap combos like you do. This is always in the back of my mind when I consider the high cost of the Pro M. I enjoy reading about this system but I have yet to see where it would pay for itself in my case. Nearly $3k is a lot of tunes.
I'm curious if the Pro M would be happy with one wideband in my turbo downpipe.
What are your goals with the current combo?
 
  • Like
Reactions: kjb302ho

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,471 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
the pro m is absolutely happy operating as a single wideband used in a single turbo application. in that scenario, you can shut down the other wideband and all the closed loop feedback will from that single one.

a friend of mine has a 90gt, single turbo, built 377. he has the pro m and is running the set up mentioned above. box stock tables, the car is a rocket and drivability is unbelievable. hard to believe he didn't have it professionally tuned.

I wish i could pay $400 for a dyno tune here but thats not the case unfortunately. my 408 is out now and honestly I have a lot of fun swapping engine and parts. The pro m has been great for that reason. Its a satisfaction drug for me.

my current combo in my stand is hopefully make another 75rwhp by means of a little bigger cam (b31 vs b41hr), more compression (10:1 vs 8.5:1) and same boost with e85.

using the flex fuel set up, the potential for detonation will be controlled by easily removing timing where the detonation happens, if it does happen, then taking the subtracted timing from that table and adding it to the ethanol content spark adder table.

that way I'll be safe with pump gas and make way mo powaah with e85.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,409 Posts
one of the reasons i bought the system was id have to wait weeks and weeks to get in the dyno. time=money
I'm fortunate to have a tuner just a few miles away but believe me; it wasn't easy finding a good one.
On the subject of detonation; how do you know? Detonation is inaudible until it starts to rattle. In a boosted setup; that could spell disaster, thus the modern usage of knock detectors. Some get lucky; some don't. Just curious.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,471 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
it would be my first time actually messing with the spark tables, ever. i cant see taking more than a few degrees out. i might just pull 3 degrees from the base spark tables, the ones under boost, and just add them to the ethanol spark adder. and then just check the plugs. im only looking at 10lbs with my set up. only spinning 5500 or so but no more than 6000. i never touch that rpm on the street anyway. too busy going sideways.

but i definitely will reach out to some other users who have more experience with this than i do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,409 Posts
it would be my first time actually messing with the spark tables, ever. i cant see taking more than a few degrees out. i might just pull 3 degrees from the base spark tables, the ones under boost, and just add them to the ethanol spark adder. and then just check the plugs. im only looking at 10lbs with my set up. only spinning 5500 or so but no more than 6000. i never touch that rpm on the street anyway. too busy going sideways.

but i definitely will reach out to some other users who have more experience with this than i do.
Plug reading is difficult with efi but you can still look for peppering on the ceramic which indicates detonation. Your logic seems sound on the timing tables. The detonation usually happens under load at first. Drive up a small grade and lug the engine. Watch to see at what load percentage the pinging is occurring. If afr is good; pull timing. Hopefully you'll never experience detonation. Your combo is very popular and much like mine with boost. I've read repeatedly to start with 15* total on pump gas. You'll definitely have an advantage with E85; just don't get greedy. I'm going to try 1 range colder plugs at first. (AR3923).
Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,471 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Plug reading is difficult with efi but you can still look for peppering on the ceramic which indicates detonation. Your logic seems sound on the timing tables. The detonation usually happens under load at first. Drive up a small grade and lug the engine. Watch to see at what load percentage the pinging is occurring. If afr is good; pull timing. Hopefully you'll never experience detonation. Your combo is very popular and much like mine with boost. I've read repeatedly to start with 15* total on pump gas. You'll definitely have an advantage with E85; just don't get greedy. I'm going to try 1 range colder plugs at first. (AR3923).
Good luck!
thanks my man i appreciate it. those are the exact plugs i will be using. ive been told by other pro m users that the spark tables are on the conservative side.

or, save myself $150 in parts/gaskets, a lot of labor, and just change the cam. and add more timing to the ethanol table and just call it a day.

i might pick up what I'm looking for.
but what fun would that be...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,409 Posts
thanks my man i appreciate it. those are the exact plugs i will be using. ive been told by other pro m users that the spark tables are on the conservative side.

or, save myself $150 in parts/gaskets, a lot of labor, and just change the cam. and add more timing to the ethanol table and just call it a day.

i might pick up what I'm looking for.
but what fun would that be...
Are you boosting a stock bottom end? What are your goals. The rpm range you are aiming for is stock cam territory. Drivability around town and even a dd is ideal with the stock cam and boost. Power comes on much earlier and makes the driving a blast. E85 wouldn't be necessary for 10-12lbs of boost. You can make an easy 500rwhp on pump gas. I've installed Promaxx heads and a welded and ported Edelbrock Performer RPM 1.
Just something to consider. Bigger cam pushes the rpm range upwards. If you have turbo lag; it will only be exaggerated by the higher rpm range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,471 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
im boosting a forged bottom end but stock roller block. i know the cam in it is very small, and i have been very happy with it. it was a quick replacement over a problem with another cam. also running 3.08 rear gear. i was running 3.55 but i had another rear and wanted to try it. The car was a whole different animal after that. for the better.

you would thinking 600rwhp was enough lol.

i would be going from afr 185 72cc to afr 195 58cc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,409 Posts
im boosting a forged bottom end but stock roller block. i know the cam in it is very small, and i have been very happy with it. it was a quick replacement over a problem with another cam. also running 3.08 rear gear. i was running 3.55 but i had another rear and wanted to try it. The car was a whole different animal after that. for the better.

you would thinking 600rwhp was enough lol.

i would be going from afr 185 72cc to afr 195 58cc.
I did just the opposite and swapped my 3.08 gears for 3.55's. My tranny is an Astro A5. With 26" tires and 3.55 gears; the car will go through the traps at my intended rpm range. ( Hopefully) :geek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
488 Posts
using the flex fuel set up, the potential for detonation will be controlled by easily removing timing where the detonation happens, if it does happen, then taking the subtracted timing from that table and adding it to the ethanol content spark adder table.

that way I'll be safe with pump gas and make way mo powaah with e85.
If you want to remove 3 from the base spark table and have all of it added back in on pump E85, I suggest you go into Spark > Flex Fuel > Scalars and change the Max Ethanol value to 0.83.

Why? (Maybe you know this, but for benefit of others as well...) The system will add a percentage of the spark adder in the Flex Fuel Base Spark Table based on ethanol content and the setting in the above mentioned field. If you leave that field populated with a 1 and you place 3s in the FF Base Spark Table, you will get 3 degrees of advance on E100 but only about 2.5 degrees on E85. I’m going to assume you want all your 3 degrees back running pump Flex Fuel. Pump flex fuel is actually at most E83. (That’s because it would be 15% gasoline mixed with 85% E98.) So, change that field to 0.83 and you’ll end up with your full 3 degrees if you get E83 out of the pump. Personally I think you’d be quite safe going higher than that, but that’s your call.
 

·
Registered
1965 fastback 347 hci v3-si Pro M efi. Tko600 3:55
Joined
·
352 Posts
i never touch that rpm on the street anyway. too busy going sideways.
Ok.... So while your 408 is being built take a few hours to install a clutch switch.

With that one clutch switch installed you just enable (in pro m software for those who don’t know)

-two step
-Traction control (just need vss sensor)
-Launch control
&
-No lift shift !

I actually couldn’t believe it.
Being 46 years old this made me feel like a kid again lol.
when I got my $12 microswitch installed I just enabled all those new features and went out and had as much fun as I’ve had in a long time LOL
You get traction control working good and your car moves forward as fast as your tires allow

All four of those features work amazing!

I’ll never forget the look on my wife’s face on my way out to go try everything when I put the clutch pedal in.. throttle to the floor
Wa ta ta ta ta ta ta ta 😆
Oh man.... I can’t wait to get my car going again.
Glad to hear your rolling while new engine is being built. 👍
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,471 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
If you want to remove 3 from the base spark table and have all of it added back in on pump E85, I suggest you go into Spark > Flex Fuel > Scalars and change the Max Ethanol value to 0.83.

Why? (Maybe you know this, but for benefit of others as well...) The system will add a percentage of the spark adder in the Flex Fuel Base Spark Table based on ethanol content and the setting in the above mentioned field. If you leave that field populated with a 1 and you place 3s in the FF Base Spark Table, you will get 3 degrees of advance on E100 but only about 2.5 degrees on E85. I’m going to assume you want all your 3 degrees back running pump Flex Fuel. Pump flex fuel is actually at most E83. (That’s because it would be 15% gasoline mixed with 85% E98.) So, change that field to 0.83 and you’ll end up with your full 3 degrees if you get E83 out of the pump. Personally I think you’d be quite safe going higher than that, but that’s your call.
thanks John I didn't know that. i will make that change today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,471 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ok.... So while your 408 is being built take a few hours to install a clutch switch.

With that one clutch switch installed you just enable (in pro m software for those who don’t know)

-two step
-Traction control (just need vss sensor)
-Launch control
&
-No lift shift !

I actually couldn’t believe it.
Being 46 years old this made me feel like a kid again lol.
when I got my $12 microswitch installed I just enabled all those new features and went out and had as much fun as I’ve had in a long time LOL
You get traction control working good and your car moves forward as fast as your tires allow

All four of those features work amazing!

I’ll never forget the look on my wife’s face on my way out to go try everything when I put the clutch pedal in.. throttle to the floor
Wa ta ta ta ta ta ta ta 😆
Oh man.... I can’t wait to get my car going again.
Glad to hear your rolling while new engine is being built. 👍
ordering that today. I cant wait. sounds amazing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
488 Posts
thanks John I didn't know that. i will make that change today.
If you go to the dyno with the car, I would suggest you follow the Tuning instructions under Help if you’re filled with Flex Fuel and add more advance over 3 to the FF Base Spark Table. I think you’ll find even more power. In my experience with pushrod engines on 93 octane, there is a little but not much power to be gained tweaking the Base Spark Table. However, with E85 and a lot of boost, you can unlock a lot of power using the FF Base Spark.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top