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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone build a Dart/Roller 302 with 4V Cleveland heads? (Basically a Boss 302) engine? What did you do to make it happen, pictures, videos, any tips and info would be appreciated.
 

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Everything you want to know is a google search away, this is 30 year old stuff.
You’re right. They need to shut the 2018 and older forum sections down. It’s all been done before. Most of the Fox related stuff on the Corral is just classifieds anyway. Let’s keep that trend.
 

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When I was 16 or 17 I was obsessed with doing this. To the point that I wanted to sell my 1969 Firebird and buy a Ford just to do it. The reason is that I read a magazine article that said how awesome it is. I was that impressionable at that age. They also didn't have a variety of cost effective Windsor heads that flowed 300cfm+ at .600. And even if they did, it wouldn't have mattered to my teenage self. Cleveland heads just sounded cool.

Over two decades later, the magic and wonderment is gone and I am dead inside. But, in all seriousness, unless you're building a Cleveland year car, or a Boss 302 clone, it's probably not the most effective or efficient way of going about meeting your power goals. And aluminum CHI 3V heads would probably be the better option anyway. But I'm kind of a Windsor guy now. Unless you're building something very niche for a specific reason, the Windsor platform has all you could even need with less work and most likely less money. You just won't impress the high school bonehead version of myself.
 

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65 fastback pump gas .060 289 (297) solid roller, T5 all motor. 11.12 122 mph
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It would be cool to those who appreciate old school fords like myself. It might be fun to prove a point to a buddy that you can run faster with early 70’s (yeah, 69 for the history nerds) heads than the new stuff. That’s up my alley. But for all out performance you are power and money ahead with other canted or non canted valve options.
 

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Fifty years ago, Car Life magazine did a shoot out between a "totally stock" 1970 Boss 302 Mustang and a "totally stock" 1969 DZ 302 Camaro Z/28....

Killer 15.0 second cars!

About all these cars are good for is collector pieces.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Fifty years ago, Car Life magazine did a shoot out between a "totally stock" 1970 Boss 302 Mustang and a "totally stock" 1969 DZ 302 Camaro Z/28....

Killer 15.0 second cars!

About all these cars are good for is collector pieces.
Neither of them were built for 1/4 mile times. The only reason the 1970 Boss 302 even exists is because they were forced to make street versions for the Trans-Am series. The 302 Z/28 was obviously Chevy’s equivelant. They’re road race cars.

So no, they’re still very competitive even to this day with most of them being updated and still raced by their owners.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
When I was 16 or 17 I was obsessed with doing this. To the point that I wanted to sell my 1969 Firebird and buy a Ford just to do it. The reason is that I read a magazine article that said how awesome it is. I was that impressionable at that age. They also didn't have a variety of cost effective Windsor heads that flowed 300cfm+ at .600. And even if they did, it wouldn't have mattered to my teenage self. Cleveland heads just sounded cool.

Over two decades later, the magic and wonderment is gone and I am dead inside. But, in all seriousness, unless you're building a Cleveland year car, or a Boss 302 clone, it's probably not the most effective or efficient way of going about meeting your power goals. And aluminum CHI 3V heads would probably be the better option anyway. But I'm kind of a Windsor guy now. Unless you're building something very niche for a specific reason, the Windsor platform has all you could even need with less work and most likely less money. You just won't impress the high school bonehead version of myself.
I figured thats the conclusion that future me would have come to, I just think nothing is more interesting then a build with swapped heads on it. My dad had an original 340 Duster that he put 360 heads on and he raced with it, I thought for whatever reason that it made the car that much cooler and more interesting.
 

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And new Mustang GT's will run circle around them on the street and at the track with the AC blowing cold and tunes rocking out the stereo burning pump gas. Stock for stock or course. Even modified for modified I bet.
 

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My family likes Bosses!

Tire Wheel Car Land vehicle Vehicle


Even with a healthy dose of love and respect for them, I'm not sure why people are still building these Clevor engines for anything but a real, nice Boss 302 or good replica. If I'm gonna build an engine on a budget, I wouldn't save a little money using heavy, big 4v C heads (vs modern CNC port aluminum Windsor heads) just to turn around and spend that money on a more expensive intake and custom headers (obviously, IDK what car you're putting this into, but there may not be a set of off the shelf headers that will work for it).

In today's world, you can make more power and torque on standard Windsor stuff without getting too magical.

FWIW, even that real Boss up there is a full 14:1 351c, not a 302 anymore. It's a race car and he can make more power with a 351.
 

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Fifty years ago, Car Life magazine did a shoot out between a "totally stock" 1970 Boss 302 Mustang and a "totally stock" 1969 DZ 302 Camaro Z/28....

Killer 15.0 second cars!

About all these cars are good for is collector pieces.
It's hard to believe a stock later model 215 horsepower Mustang GT could pull off a 14.2 in the quarter mile. WOW, lightening fast. It must have seemed like a rocket ship compared to those Trans Am cars.

On a side note I just finished helping my father install a 351 Cobra Jet in his 1971 Mach 1. It has original high compression iron 4 barrel Cobra Jet heads, Holley dominator intake, massive long tube headers and a custom bullet camshaft. I'm hoping it can pull off some impressive numbers. The car has a 4R70W transmission with 4.30 gears and a Detroit locker. Crossing my fingers that it will be able to beat one of those extremely fast 215 horsepower GT Mustangs.
 

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Neither of them were built for 1/4 mile times. The only reason the 1970 Boss 302 even exists is because they were forced to make street versions for the Trans-Am series. The 302 Z/28 was obviously Chevy’s equivelant. They’re road race cars.

So no, they’re still very competitive even to this day with most of them being updated and still raced by their owners.
Preaching to the choir but the fact is, they were turds in street form so why consider building one?
 

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Neither of them were built for 1/4 mile times. The only reason the 1970 Boss 302 even exists is because they were forced to make street versions for the Trans-Am series. The 302 Z/28 was obviously Chevy’s equivelant. They’re road race cars.

So no, they’re still very competitive even to this day with most of them being updated and still raced by their owners.
Competitive against each other maybe. Any of the yellow and white Saleen Foxbody race cars of the 1990s would probably eat any of the old Trans Am cars alive, and most had basically stock 5.0 engines with E7 heads. Back in the old days there was one way of doing things: RPM. Later on we had the benefit of a little more technology, like roller cams, and things that area under the curve, basically making two cars with similar peak power behave very differently. As pointed out, old Trans Am cars run 15s with 290 SAE gross horsepower while Fox 5.0s would run 14s with 225 SAE net horsepower. And that's drag racing. Road racing would probably hurt even more.

It's important not to be caught up in the legendary cars of the past. It's like old the 2-stroke widow maker motorcycles of the 1970s. They got their reputations because they had mediocre chassis, suspension and brakes, paired with an engine that had a powerband like a light switch. But even top of the line mid 1980s crotch rockets would beat them in any measured performance category.

Building like it's the 1960s instead of the 2020s is just tying an arm behind your back. No point in it unless doing a very specific wine & cheese nostalgia build.
 

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Competitive against each other maybe. Any of the yellow and white Saleen Foxbody race cars of the 1990s would probably eat any of the old Trans Am cars alive, and most had basically stock 5.0 engines with E7 heads. Back in the old days there was one way of doing things: RPM. Later on we had the benefit of a little more technology, like roller cams, and things that area under the curve, basically making two cars with similar peak power behave very differently. As pointed out, old Trans Am cars run 15s with 290 SAE gross horsepower while Fox 5.0s would run 14s with 225 SAE net horsepower. And that's drag racing. Road racing would probably hurt even more.

It's important not to be caught up in the legendary cars of the past. It's like old the 2-stroke widow maker motorcycles of the 1970s. They got their reputations because they had mediocre chassis, suspension and brakes, paired with an engine that had a powerband like a light switch. But even top of the line 1980s crotch rockets would beat them in any measured performance category.

Building like it's the 1960s instead of the 2020s is just tying an arm behind your back. No point in it unless doing a very specific wine & cheese nostalgia build.
The old 1969-1970 Mustang chassis is actually better for handling once updated with a modern SLA type suspension and Griggs racing has confirmed they do in fact handle better than their modern counterparts due to chassis length. The Fox Chassis limitations is in it's chassis dimensions, but that's not to say it's bad or not better than the old chassis stock for stock which it is.

The Old Trans Am cars were also running less sticky, and very ****ty tires stock in 1969/70. Swap tires, and they'll be more even with the Fox cars stock for stock in a drag race.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Preaching to the choir but the fact is, they were turds in street form so why consider building one?
Back in 70, every street car sold off the dealership lot was a turd.
But im not even building a 70 Boss, the Clevor idea is for a Foxbody. I got a pair of 4V closed chambers for dirt cheap and was wondering what the process of the swap was and how difficult it might be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Competitive against each other maybe. Any of the yellow and white Saleen Foxbody race cars of the 1990s would probably eat any of the old Trans Am cars alive, and most had basically stock 5.0 engines with E7 heads. Back in the old days there was one way of doing things: RPM. Later on we had the benefit of a little more technology, like roller cams, and things that area under the curve, basically making two cars with similar peak power behave very differently. As pointed out, old Trans Am cars run 15s with 290 SAE gross horsepower while Fox 5.0s would run 14s with 225 SAE net horsepower. And that's drag racing. Road racing would probably hurt even more.

It's important not to be caught up in the legendary cars of the past. It's like old the 2-stroke widow maker motorcycles of the 1970s. They got their reputations because they had mediocre chassis, suspension and brakes, paired with an engine that had a powerband like a light switch. But even top of the line mid 1980s crotch rockets would beat them in any measured performance category.

Building like it's the 1960s instead of the 2020s is just tying an arm behind your back. No point in it unless doing a very specific wine & cheese nostalgia build.
Im not, Im more stuck in the 90’s then anything else. I was just defending the old Trans-Ams, since they were being compared to straight line cars when thats obviously not their main focus.
 

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The old 1969-1970 Mustang chassis is actually better for handling once updated with a modern SLA type suspension and Griggs racing has confirmed they do in fact handle better than their modern counterparts due to chassis length. The Fox Chassis limitations is in it's chassis dimensions, but that's not to say it's bad or not better than the old chassis stock for stock which it is.

The Old Trans Am cars were also running less sticky, and very ****ty tires stock in 1969/70. Swap tires, and they'll be more even with the Fox cars stock for stock in a drag race.
If you spend $15,000 turning them into completely different cars they handle better than stock 1980s cars. Yes, that is true. Griggs or Cortex stuff is amazing suspension for the vintage Mustangs, no question about it. But if you do that to a Boss 302, you've just taken it out of the one class where it could be a competitive race car and put into an unlimited class where it's basically just a toy to show off to people, and will probably still have a hard time being competitive with a modified 911, C5 Z06 or BMW M3 that it is now in the same class as.

Reality sucks. Ask all the guys who spend their weekends looking at the tail lights of Mazda Miatas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
My family likes Bosses!

View attachment 1078093

Even with a healthy dose of love and respect for them, I'm not sure why people are still building these Clevor engines for anything but a real, nice Boss 302 or good replica. If I'm gonna build an engine on a budget, I wouldn't save a little money using heavy, big 4v C heads (vs modern CNC port aluminum Windsor heads) just to turn around and spend that money on a more expensive intake and custom headers (obviously, IDK what car you're putting this into, but there may not be a set of off the shelf headers that will work for it).

In today's world, you can make more power and torque on standard Windsor stuff without getting too magical.

FWIW, even that real Boss up there is a full 14:1 351c, not a 302 anymore. It's a race car and he can make more power with a 351.
Because Im using a Foxbody, the power that it puts out isn’t as important to me as the general cool factor, character of the car. The engine could be bone stock with the car having a decked out drivetrain, full suspension mods and still crack 12’s. I think a Clevor is just an interesting build, definitely makes you smile when you think about it, its just a badass setup to have. So I think when you throw horsepower wars aside, and stop worrying about being the fastest car in the world, you end up with a much more satisfying build.
 
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