[dmccluney]

Hey guys!
I just picked up a 1995 Mustang GT as a project and I wanted to reach out to the community and start a thread discussing some of the issues I've come across.

I'm only somewhat familiar with this motor, I had a 1991 F150 years ago that had the 5.0, but I will need a refresher on some of the components.

Here are my existing outstanding questions, just to see what you all think?
1. The previous owner removed the smog pump and tossed it, why? "To get more horsepower". So now the car has the infamous idle surge trouble and a CEL. Here is my question: Should I try and source a salvage smog pump? Could I get a tune (say for example, a mail-order BAMA tune?) to resolve this problem?

2. Regarding the smog pump removal - I believe he truly removed the smog pump because of the exhaust setup the car has, I only picked up the car day before yesterday, but I took a peak underneath and I do not see any catalytic converters. My question is: Will I need to get a new H pipe (or something similar) with a new set of high flow cats to make the smog pump work correctly? In my state, we do not have inspections and there is no legal requirement for the cats to be on there, just looking to improve functionality of the car.

3. Also regarding exhaust, the owner put on "unknown" shorty headers, found there was an exhaust leak, and then wrapped the pipes in exhaust tape? He gave me a set of BBK unequal length headers to go with the car. When driving, you can hear about 1/2 the exhaust tone from behind the char, and about 1/2 coming from around the passenger floorboard area, perhaps a bit closer to the firewall, you can also smell exhaust in the engine bay when the hood is open - this could simply be loose header bolts, or a damaged header gasket. Since the existing header pipes are unknown (also unequal length fyi) Here is my question: Should I pull those pipes off and put on the BBK headers with fresh copper sealant and try and resolve the exhaust leak problem?, since I already have them, and I know what they are, seems like I wouldn't want to let the unknown pipes stay... Or should I just attempt to retighten what is there to see if I can get a better seal?

All of this is to say - I got a great deal on the car, I've always loved the SN95 body style and I am really pumped to get going on the car. The tranny shifts beautifully, and the car has almost 0 shimmy on the highway going 70mph. She's been well taken care of, for the most part - even if you consider the poor attempt of backyard mechanic work.

Thanks guys!

 

[Johnnym1]

I really don't think the smog pump removal is whats affecting the way your car is running. You need to run the codes and go from there. You need to get under the car and see what the root cause of the exhaust leak is and fix it accordingly.

 

[P63]

1. T Here is my question: Should I try and source a salvage smog pump? Could I get a tune (say for example, a mail-order BAMA tune?) to resolve this problem?

I'd try the corral classifieds first.
I get short-tempered over people cheating for more power... if you want to drive on the street then don't remove smog equipment, period. (running for my flame suit.)

2. Will I need to get a new H pipe (or something similar) with a new set of high flow cats to make the smog pump work correctly?

Properly working cats prevent your car from stinking. But if they were missing, the smog pump would be less able to make the chemical reactions happen. A properly running car wouldn't stop running properly though.



As has been said, pull codes.

Welcome to the club!

 

[dmccluney]

I really don't think the smog pump removal is whats affecting the way your car is running. You need to run the codes and go from there. You need to get under the car and see what the root cause of the exhaust leak is and fix it accordingly.

You may be right - I am not entirely sure what all has been done to the car yet, just what he's told me.
I will attempt the jump test and get my codes tonight and will report back with my findings.

Thank you!

I'd try the corral classifieds first.
I get short-tempered over people cheating for more power... if you want to drive on the street then don't remove smog equipment, period. (running for my flame suit.)


Properly working cats prevent your car from stinking. But if they were missing, the smog pump would be less able to make the chemical reactions happen. A properly running car wouldn't stop running properly though.



As has been said, pull codes.

Welcome to the club!

You're telling me... I'm all for putting on BETTER equipment (high flow cats, lower restriction intakes, etc.) to make the car run better, but the ******* approach of "Whelp, screw the environment, I gotta take this down to the strip" ticks me off. The car was designed to run with this equipment... sure back in the 1970's, when cars first had exhaust gas recycling they were similarly equipped with carbs, and indeed they would run better without smog/exhaust gas equipment - but late model computer controlled fuel injected engines run best as the engineers designed them.

Just blows my mind.

</rant>
Thank you for having me!

 

[dmccluney]

So I pulled my codes tonight and this is what I got:

136 - O2 sensor not switching: System too lean (Left or Front)
172 - O2 sensor not switching: System too lean (Right or Rear)
176 - O2 sensor not switching: System too lean (Left or Front)
181 - Fuel system was lean at part throttle
332 - EGR valve did not open/respond during test
412 - Idle speed system not controlling idle properly

Now with each of these catching a "Too lean" symptom, it would lead me to believe it's my Idle Air Control Valve? Perhaps it's stuck open? In the next day or so I can take a stab at getting the intake off and getting to the valve and attempting to clean it out. Should I try and clean it or would it be better to just replace?

Thanks!

 

[MecGen]

You may be right - I am not entirely sure what all has been done to the car yet, just what he's told me.
I will attempt the jump test and get my codes tonight and will report back with my findings.

Thank you!





You're telling me... I'm all for putting on BETTER equipment (high flow cats, lower restriction intakes, etc.) to make the car run better, but the ******* approach of "Whelp, screw the environment, I gotta take this down to the strip" ticks me off. The car was designed to run with this equipment... sure back in the 1970's, when cars first had exhaust gas recycling they were similarly equipped with carbs, and indeed they would run better without smog/exhaust gas equipment - but late model computer controlled fuel injected engines run best as the engineers designed them.

Just blows my mind.

</rant>
Thank you for having me!

Welcome to Mustang land


If you modify the motor in ANY way (intake or cats), is negatively effecting the enviroment...hell some could argue just owning a Mustang is death to the enviroment. Let's not talk about an over the counter tune IE: Bamma tune.

The air pump does absolutely nothing, nada, without cats, and to be more specific, with the stock cats - all four. The air pump and missing component should not effect your car like the way it is.

IMHO get a decent scanner and try to fix it yourself or pay someone to diagnose it, I think a properly running motor first and formost, then get a set of hyflo cats welded in and call it a day.

Good Luck!

 

[bolt-on-bandito]

No one wants this opinion but here it is.

These cars are turds by todays standards. minivan's come with more HP then these sport cars did. Saying that, these are a great platform to build power, but it takes a lot of modding. H/C/I is fun, good to learn, but to make them comparable to today's entry level sports cars, a super charger and a set of gears will even the playing field. the biggest advantage we have is being several hundred pounds lighter, and there's a lot of weight that can be removed without much ill effect.

I assume anyone buying these cars want something fast. IMO if you do not have emissions testing, you can worry about performance more then passing a smog check. there's nothing wrong with high flow cats and a smog pump, but most guys would rather spend the money on go-fast parts, and remove systems that do not add to performance. if you are into preserving this 100% as factory, then by all means.

(not hating on old mustangs, it's just a fact. i have worked very hard to make mine what it is, realizing today's tech is light years ahead of pushrod motors, yet are are cheap, easy to work on, and respond well to mods!)



1) i would not mess with a tune.

2) cats do not improve functionality of the car. they prevent specific harmful emissions, they cause your exhaust to be less stinky.

3) the 5.0 love's to push out header bolts. header wrap is an old school track thing,there is a debate is to if they are helpful or harmful, but they do rust/rot out headers. shorty's are great for install, long tubes are a nightmare to install, but add power. unequal's are supposed to be the "in between" in headers....it's your call. if you are going to install new headers, check the flange for straightness. take them to a machine shop if they seem warped at all.

i have had good luck with remflex or mr. gasket metal header gaskets, they crush upon install. if you do want to install a smog pump, your headers will need a smog provision.

good luck!

 

[dmccluney]

No one wants this opinion but here it is.

These cars are turds by todays standards. minivan's come with more HP then these sport cars did. Saying that, these are a great platform to build power, but it takes a lot of modding. H/C/I is fun, good to learn, but to make them comparable to today's entry level sports cars, a super charger and a set of gears will even the playing field. the biggest advantage we have is being several hundred pounds lighter, and there's a lot of weight that can be removed without much ill effect.

I assume anyone buying these cars want something fast. IMO if you do not have emissions testing, you can worry about performance more then passing a smog check. there's nothing wrong with high flow cats and a smog pump, but most guys would rather spend the money on go-fast parts, and remove systems that do not add to performance. if you are into preserving this 100% as factory, then by all means.

(not hating on old mustangs, it's just a fact. i have worked very hard to make mine what it is, realizing today's tech is light years ahead of pushrod motors, yet are are cheap, easy to work on, and respond well to mods!)



1) i would not mess with a tune.

2) cats do not improve functionality of the car. they prevent specific harmful emissions, they cause your exhaust to be less stinky.

3) the 5.0 love's to push out header bolts. header wrap is an old school track thing,there is a debate is to if they are helpful or harmful, but they do rust/rot out headers. shorty's are great for install, long tubes are a nightmare to install, but add power. unequal's are supposed to be the "in between" in headers....it's your call. if you are going to install new headers, check the flange for straightness. take them to a machine shop if they seem warped at all.

i have had good luck with remflex or mr. gasket metal header gaskets, they crush upon install. if you do want to install a smog pump, your headers will need a smog provision.

good luck!

Thanks for the input!

I never expected the car to be a racing machine, and I know it will probably never stand toe to toe to my buddy's cars, (one guy having a Z06, and the other has a twin snail setup on his 350z) - but that wasn't what I was looking for. I wanted old muscle car sound and feel, with some modern creature comforts. All wrapped up in my favorite body style.

Go fast parts are great, but I don't want the car to be unenjoyable around town. I want a cruiser car, for lack of a better word!

The car does stink of exhaust most of the time, inside the cabin and outside - I hope that fixing this exhaust leak will correct that, but if it doesn't, I'll be asking for tips. If you think a pair of cats would fix that smell, that would be great. I love the sound of the car, but I don't want to smell exhaust when I park and get out.

I already have the BBK unequal length headers lying around, so I won't be out any money, I did some more digging around under the car last night and it appears that where the passenger side header meets the mid pipe (maybe? idk what it's called since there are no cats there) is not sealed. The top bolt looks nice and tight but the bottom bolt has obvious threads showing between the flanges and I can tell that the two are not even. The bottom nut appears to be pretty beaten up, like someone tried to tighten them back after the fact and couldn't get it tight.

I have already picked up a Ford racing header gasket, not really knowing what would be the best option, and assuming Ford Racing wouldn't be a bad choice, that's who I got.

I heard that it's good to use copper gasket sealant as well? Do you agree?

Thanks!

 

[bolt-on-bandito]

i usually don't use sealant, just the crush type gaskets. the ford racing ones should be fine, you may need to clean the threads up first to ensure a good seal.

i don't have cats, and i don't get the exhaust stink. i think getting the headers sealed should solve this.

Asfar as enjoyable around town, that is totally subjective.

Good luck!

 

[P63]

1. Yes, cars are getting faster every year. I had a $#@! Infinitti walk me. I didn't really care though, it's all fun, my car is my hobby, versus an instrument to crush others.
(note that a blown 427 or coyote pretty much bolts in though)


2. Your options for H-pipe includes:
Trolling the classifieds
JY
buying legal cats and having them installed in your offroad midpipe
magnaflow

I tried the basanni catted X and it was a joke. Stink, stink, stink. Plus if failed the sniffer badly. (Cats really work, who knew?)

 

[GeorgeKlass]

if you do want to install a smog pump, your headers will need a smog provision.

Bandito, it's the mid pipe that needs the smog provision not the headers. The pass side header needs a bung for the EGR valve.


OP: If you decide to get cats you still don't need the smog pump. Today's cat converters do not require them. When the smog pump is removed, there is a code that appears when you scan but the check engine light does not come on. If you ever get a tune for the car you can have the tuner disable it.

If your current midpipe is in good condition you can buy cats and have them welded on. Magnaflow makes some very nice ones.

 

[bolt-on-bandito]

sorry, i forgot. its been about 10 years since i had any emissions stuff.

 

[dmccluney]

So, update:
I bought a new idle air control valve, and that dramatically helped my engine surge, but I do still get about 200 rpm drop and spike (going from about 500 rpm to about 900 rpm). But the car no longer stalls out.

The set of BBK Headers that I was given do not match my car... that's a lesson learned in frustration. Once we got the passenger side header off, we just attempted to bolt on the BBK - but the bolts just wouldn't quite line up (about 1/4 inch off). Saw that the header that was on there was covered in black soot around the bottom end of the flange that meets the mid pipe. Ended up putting what was on the car back on. Found that the bottom bolt that held the header to the midpipe had some sort of metal ring around it, and that is why the pipes couldn't meet. That ring would keep the bolt from being tightened down all the way.

Got a new bolt for it and put it on and I was able to tighten them down all the way... exhaust leak is gone - for now...

Now my engine idle has gotten much rougher... to the point where it shakes the whole car off and on - but the rpm's aren't dropping that much... so I may need to investigate.

I DID see that there appears to be some sort of threaded pipe looking thing coming off of my EGR that is exposed? I'm thinking that it shouldn't be... so I may go to the store and pick up some sort of cap that I can screw over it?

What do you y'all think?

i usually don't use sealant, just the crush type gaskets. the ford racing ones should be fine, you may need to clean the threads up first to ensure a good seal.

i don't have cats, and i don't get the exhaust stink. i think getting the headers sealed should solve this.

Asfar as enjoyable around town, that is totally subjective.

Good luck!

I ended up just using just the gasket and that seems to be working.
I don't seem to have nearly as much exhaust stink, there could be something else going on - but I believe the issue is resolved. No more noise from the engine bay, or smell of exhaust.

So thank you for the advice!

1. Yes, cars are getting faster every year. I had a $#@! Infinitti walk me. I didn't really care though, it's all fun, my car is my hobby, versus an instrument to crush others.
(note that a blown 427 or coyote pretty much bolts in though)


2. Your options for H-pipe includes:
Trolling the classifieds
JY
buying legal cats and having them installed in your offroad midpipe
magnaflow

I tried the basanni catted X and it was a joke. Stink, stink, stink. Plus if failed the sniffer badly. (Cats really work, who knew?)

Yeah, this car is a blast - I am thrilled with what I have, I am not worried about how fast it is... my 2010 fusion had more horsepower than this, but it's not nearly as much fun

Maybe a Coyote in the future - but at $14k for a crate motor (and I have never done anything like that), it may be better just to get a rebuild and do some sort of f/i. We will see, that'll be waaayyy down the road.

Regarding cats, I will probably go with your last option, and get some cats purchased and welded in - I will keep y'all updated on this, as it progresses. Right now my biggest priority is to get the car operating well, then I will move towards making it as perfect as I can get it.

OP: If you decide to get cats you still don't need the smog pump. Today's cat converters do not require them. When the smog pump is removed, there is a code that appears when you scan but the check engine light does not come on. If you ever get a tune for the car you can have the tuner disable it.

Once I've fixed as much mechanical work as I can, I will most likely take the car to a tuner and have it checked out - if they can disable that error code that would help, just to have one less thing to cycle through when pulling the codes, if nothing else!

 

[HYBRED]

I am guessing that all your lean codes are coming from the EGR tube not being connected to the header.

You could have a bung installed in your header and connect it to the EGR, or

Remove the EGR and block it off then have a tune done to disable it OR

Block off the EGR and ignore the CEL.

 

[dmccluney]

I am guessing that all your lean codes are coming from the EGR tube not being connected to the header.

You could have a bung installed in your header and connect it to the EGR, or

Remove the EGR and block it off then have a tune done to disable it OR

Block off the EGR and ignore the CEL.

I think you may be right.
I ordered a block off plate and a simulator... idk if the simulator is going to work, if it doesn't I'm not out much money and I can get it tuned to resolve that issue.

Before I get it tuned I'm trying to get all the mechanical issues resolved.

I am going to replace the TPS as well, to just get that out of the way as well.

 

[HYBRED]

I wouldn't suggest using the simulator.

 

[TrickVert]

^+1
The EEC will make (now incorrect) adjustments thinking is there. Better to live with the CEL until you can have it turned off in the tune.

Andy

 

[dmccluney]

Okay, thanks for the heads up regarding the simulator - when it comes in perhaps I'll just keep it as a knickknack in the garage... haha.

Could I get some advice regarding a few codes that I am getting?
136 - Heated O2 sensor indicates lean condition - left side
172 - Heated O2 sensor indicates lean condition - right side
176 - Heated O2 sensor indicates lean condition - left side
181 - Adaptive fuel rich limit reached at part throttle - right side
232 - PCM detected coil 1,2,3, or 4 primary circuit failture
332 - Insufficient EGR valve opening detected.

136, 172, 176, and 332 all make sense to me - but I don't understand 181 or 232. Any advice regarding those two codes?

 

[HYBRED]

181 is a result of your lean codes. Adaptive strategy recognized the lean condition and added fuel, up to it's limit and you are still lean.

I don't have anything for the other code.

 

[dmccluney]

So the 232 code was resolved by doing an ignition tune up. I put a new set of plugs and wires on and that code hasn't returned.

I will say that my plugs were white, leading me to believe that the car is actually running lean, and it's not a random code being thrown by a bad sensor.

I have removed the EGR and installed a block off plate.

My current codes are:
327 and 313 which are both EGR related.
412 - Cannot control rpm at high Rpm test
136 and 172 which are both lean codes

So I'm narrowing it down, but I don't understand why the car is running lean. I've checked all the vacuum hoses that were smog related and all are plugged.

I've replaced the fuel filter.
I've cleaned the throttle body and MAF.
I've replaced the IAC.
I've resolved the exhaust leak.

I'm not sure what else could be causing this... Could the computer need a retune? It has a CAI and Flowmaster exhaust... I know on my bike I had to get a fuel processor to get more fuel into the motor after I put a new intake and exhaust on it.

Thanks for reading!