Ford Mustang Forums banner

961 - 980 of 997 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #961 ·
Been a while since I posted so I thought I would do an update on the car. I was pushing to get the car done for the track day this last weekend. Since the engine checked out fine I decided to go to a full shroud with dual fans. I also added a Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT fan controller to the car. It can control dual and single fans. I figure it would be nice to have something I could switch between dual and single fan setups on the car. I think the dual fan setup will work for autocross and the single fan without a shroud will be the best. The dual fan setup is a Derale it flows 3750cfm and the shroud fits completely over the whole radiator core.





The cooling did fine this weekend but I think this was the wrong setup to run on the track I should stuck with the single fan. When it was 92 degrees out the car got up to 215 water temp which isn't to bad but I think it might have been better with a single fan. I was going to run the end of May track day but I decided to skip it and run an autocross the weekend before that event. By the end of May its going to be close to 100 out at the track and I don't feel like dealing with it.

The next part was working on the oil cooler. I kept having issues with the Mocal sandwich plate leaking. I tried tightening the fittings tightening the sandwich plate to the block but nothing would keep it from leaking. So I decided to swap it out with a Improved racing sandwich plate and remote thermostat. I mounted the remote sandwich plate in the fender area with some L brackets.



I was worried about it get hit by rocks and stuff so I built a small shield for it.



I wasn't going to put the thermostat in the car just yet and run the lines without it since I could reuse what I already had made which would have been allot easier but after talking with Jack I installed it and glad I did it right. I still need to add the Accusump to the car but probably won't do that until the summer when I have a month break from racing. The cooler helped considering when I ran the car last time at the track the oil temps without the cooler on a day that was around high 60's low 70's the oil got up to 280. This event when it was 92 out and pushing on the car the oil temp was around 230-240.

The track day was fun I had a really good time. It was a bit windy and my last session there was allot of sand blowing on the track. The BFG Rivals held up good for 3 year old tires. I pushed pretty hard and felt like I was allot faster this time around. I was stressed out heading into the event wondering if the car was going to overheat but it all worked out.





I really enjoy chuckwalla it's a fun track. I plan on going back probably around the end of the year.

I'm happy the car survived the weekend and can't wait for the autocross this weekend. I have a few minor things I need to handle on the car like disconnecting the brake ducting since i don't need brake cooling at the autocross. I also burned up a couple plug wire boots on my brand new wires.



It wasn't touching anything it was just the heat what's weird is it only happened on cylinder 4 and 7 the rest were fine. I check the temp on those two cylinders at the header and they are no hotter then the others but for some reason they got burned up. I have a couple spare ones I can swap them out with for this weekend so it's not that big of a deal. I also have a new set of tires coming for the car that I want to try out. They are the Nankang CR-1 I've been told by the people that have run them they have the grip of the A052 with a stiffer side wall and they will fit on a 10.5 wheel better. They can also take heat better then the A052.

Some other things I'm going to work on once this next event is over is the speedo. I got the speedhut box for the car I just haven't installed it yet. It's not a priority right now so I didn't worry about it.



I already plugged the VSS sensor on the transmission. I just cut off the end of the old speedo cable and stuck a cap on the end.



That's about it with the car right now. I do have some minor things to take care of on the car like getting back to figuring out the bump steer on the front. I also have a wideband gauge that decided to stop displaying anything but that still work since I can see them on my laptop working. I also have a temp gauge for the IRS housing but haven't hooked it up yet. I've also found putting the temp sensor for my water gauge hear doesn't work very well.



The aluminum fitting for the sensor gets heat soaked and cause it to read about 10-15 degrees hotter then the car really is. I'm going to look at moving is somewhere better. I'm hoping to start to get the car to a point by the end of the year that will be more maintaining then fixing issues with it.

I also forgot to mention I switched to Raybestos ST43 pads on the car and they worked great no fade or spongy pedal. They were very consistent and always had the same feel from braking zone to braking zone I was really happy with them. I should have another update at the end of the week about the up coming autocross.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
946 Posts
Your car looks just flat out bad to the bone out on track! Incredible build. What brand of wires does the car have? That's pretty unusual having plug boots do that.

Also curious about the bump steer comment, what issue do you have with that?

Jay
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #963 ·
Your car looks just flat out bad to the bone out on track! Incredible build. What brand of wires does the car have? That's pretty unusual having plug boots do that.

Also curious about the bump steer comment, what issue do you have with that?

Jay
The wires are Fire Core 50 wires and they come highly recommended but I have had the worst time with the boots. I thought about trying other wires but not sure what other ones to go with.

The issue with the bump steer is I found when trying to bump steer the front of the car the tie rods on the rack are different lengths one is 11inch long the other is 11-1/2 inches so if you look at the bumps steer graph for the front they are different. I would like to balance out so they have the same bump steer curve. Its going to take measuring everything in the rack and bunch of other stuff and right now I don't have the time to address it. They are close enough so I'm leaving it for now.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Install ceramic fiber cloth boots over the plug boots. That will fix the problem with them melting.

Your comment about the aluminum piece that the temp sensor is mounted in, heat soaking and as a result reading too high doesn't make sense. The aluminum temperature can only ever get as hot as the water. Once the water temp drops, it will cool the temperature of the aluminum back to down to it in a couple of seconds. The specific heat of the water is much higher than that of the aluminum and there is a much larger mass of it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #965 ·
Install ceramic fiber cloth boots over the plug boots. That will fix the problem with them melting.

Your comment about the aluminum piece that the temp sensor is mounted in, heat soaking and as a result reading too high doesn't make sense. The aluminum temperature can only ever get as hot as the water. Once the water temp drops, it will cool the temperature of the aluminum back to down to it in a couple of seconds. The specific heat of the water is much higher than that of the aluminum and there is a much larger mass of it.
I just installed some covers over the boots to keep them from melting.

The only reason I mention it is when I look at the temp on the gauge and then i see what the sensor for the fans reads and there is about a 10-15 degree difference. The sensor for the fans is in the radiator right at the inlet it's not one of the pushing in the radiator core it screws into the radiator. I can see that the water in the radiator is starting to get cooled but didn't think it would change that much since the reading from the gauge is maybe a foot away from the reading at the radiator. It makes sense what you are saying how could something get hotter then the thing applying heat to it. The only thing good about where I have the gauge sensor now is I know when the thermostat opens.

Do you think the temp sensor that controls the fans should be in the radiator or should it be in the intake manifold before the thermostat?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Both sensors are probably NTC resistive elements. This stands for Negative Temperature Coefficient. This means that as temperature goes up, the resistance of the sensor goes down. I would by putting both sensors in hot water at the same time. With a DVM, measure the resistance of both sensors. Do this with room temperature water and with water near your operating temperature (190F). Post the results.

The fan sensor should not be installed in the engine block (behind the thermostat) because regardless of the temperature there, there may or may not be water flowing through the thermostat. If there is no water flow, there is no point in having the fan run. The fan sensor needs to be mounted between the thermostat and the radiator. I think that in the top of the thermostat housing would be fine.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #967 ·
Had a great weekend out at NMCA west. I finished third on Saturday which was nice. The cooling issue isn't fixed yet but we will get into that later. I think this is more important. I had a better day on Sunday.



I won the class on Sunday which was awesome. I can't believe this old foxbody could beat out new gen cars from ZL1/1LE Camaros to new GT350's. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. It feels good to see all the hard work pay off. It felt good to come out on top of a 22 car field of some really good drivers.

Here's my fastest Saturday run.


Class winning run on Sunday.


I still need to improve on the car. Now that I have one the class I will get moved to the Modern Muscle Pro class which is even faster and has all the previous winners in it. I car is still a bit tail happy it seems to get into the corners really good it's just having problems getting out. I think some of it is the car and some of it is me for years I drove a car that you could just stand on the gas and it didn't make enough power to break the tires loose. I got a bit smoother on the gas Sunday but I was still over steering on corner exit. I think more camber in the rear will help. I can plenty on the passenger side not very much on the driver.

The bad was the cooling. The car was doing the same thing even with both off the fans going it would stay cool. I will say it would top out at around 220-225 and never go higher but that's to warm for me. The oil temps never went over 220 both days. I'm starting to wonder if having such a big oil cooler in front of the radiator is part of the problem. I talked to a few people that have used the edelbrock water pump and they said replace it with a Meziere electric water pump so the car always has a good flow and isn't dependent on the engine speed. I'm going to flush out the system and go over the car to see if I can get this figured out before the next event. I'm looking at the Meziere pump right now it would be nice to be able to pump water through the system even when the car is off. I had thought about using one when I first built the car but didn't.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Peter,

A huge percentage of making a car fast and good handling is about how much time is spent on the details to optimize that parts you have. In a lot of cases, people take expensive cars and throw a bunch of expensive parts on it. That must make it fast, right? Another issue is that someone may be a great driver, but that really doesn't mean that they know anything about the physics to setup the car. These two skills have absolutely nothing to do with each other. People that can do both are extremely rare.

You spent money on fancy adjustable dampers, use them. If the car oversteers on corner exit, soften the rear dampers, probably in rebound. If the rear is already too soft, then stiffen the front dampers instead.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Just watched your new videos. It appears that the car has steady state understeer. If this is the case, try and find one of the Eibach adjustable rear swaybars for the IRS. This will be the best way to add roll stiffness in the rear to counteract it.

It looks like the car gets loose midcorner. This isn't so much a damper issue because the roll angle of the car is constant. More rear camber will help this, but it will also make the steady state understeer worse. To the largest degree possible you want to run as little rear camber as you can get away with. I would start adding static toe in, in the IRS. As we have already discussed, under cornering loads, there is significant compliance steer in it. The rear RLCA mounting points (compared to the fronts) can move inwards under cornering loads, which causes the toe to go toe out. You can adjust your bumpsteer curve to have more toe in under bump, but the safer and easier thing to do is to increase the amount of static toe in.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #970 ·
Just watched your new videos. It appears that the car has steady state understeer. If this is the case, try and find one of the Eibach adjustable rear swaybars for the IRS. This will be the best way to add roll stiffness in the rear to counteract it.

It looks like the car gets loose midcorner. This isn't so much a damper issue because the roll angle of the car is constant. More rear camber will help this, but it will also make the steady state understeer worse. To the largest degree possible you want to run as little rear camber as you can get away with. I would start adding static toe in, in the IRS. As we have already discussed, under cornering loads, there is significant compliance steer in it. The rear RLCA mounting points (compared to the fronts) can move inwards under cornering loads, which causes the toe to go toe out. You can adjust your bumpsteer curve to have more toe in under bump, but the safer and easier thing to do is to increase the amount of static toe in.
I will take a look at the getting one of those sway bars to have as another tuning tool. I know the discontinued them some time ago so finding one might be hard to do. I did make a slight shock change to the rear of the car. I softened the compression by 2 clicks it seemed to make it better. What is nice about NMCA is you get 9 runs a day broken up it 3 run groups you normally get over an hour break between run groups so making changes to the car you have plenty of time. The next time out I'm going to run my first set of runs see what the car needs then make the changes and see on the next set of runs how that affected the cars handling.

Peter,

A huge percentage of making a car fast and good handling is about how much time is spent on the details to optimize that parts you have. In a lot of cases, people take expensive cars and throw a bunch of expensive parts on it. That must make it fast, right? Another issue is that someone may be a great driver, but that really doesn't mean that they know anything about the physics to setup the car. These two skills have absolutely nothing to do with each other. People that can do both are extremely rare.

You spent money on fancy adjustable dampers, use them. If the car oversteers on corner exit, soften the rear dampers, probably in rebound. If the rear is already too soft, then stiffen the front dampers instead.
The issue I have and something we've talked about before is I just adapt my driving to the short comings of the car. This is the first time I'm attempting to setup a car to work better for me not drive around an issue with the car but fix the issue and make it work better that's the only way it will get faster. When the car was oversteering I went to the rear shocks to mess with the settings. I figured with the way the car was getting into corner fine and it was when I was transitioning to the throttle it would be better to mess with the compression setting since the car is starting to load up the rear. Now maybe the better move would have been adjusting the rebound to soften it up to keep the rear from lifting up so much under brakes. I'm trying to get back to the books you recommended so I can start to understand this stuff better.

As always Jack thanks for your help on the car I always appreciate it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Is the car understeering in the steady state portion of the corners? At steady state throttle and steering.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #972 ·
No the car is fine when entering the corner in the steady state portion of the corner it's when I exit the corner and start to feed it gas the rear of the car wants to come around.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Then it doesn't have any steady state understeer and therefore doesn't need a stiffer rear swaybar.

From the angle of the front tire in the video, it looked like its slip angle was too high, but since I can't also see the slip angle of the rear tire, I can't be sure that the car was understeering. If the front slip angle is higher than the rear slip angle, the car is by definition understeering. If the opposite is true, the car is by definition oversteering.

I would start by adding toe in on the IRS to try and control the oversteer. If that doesn't fix it, then switch to rear shock damping. I would start with rebound damping. If the course is smooth, removing compression damping won't have much affect. Removing rebound damping will have more affect all of the time.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #974 ·
Little update on the car. I flushed out the radiator and drained the block a got everything cleaned up. I decided to go back to distilled water and water wetter like I had in the car before I added the summit racing coolant. Not sure if I will stick with this but it should work for now. I'm hoping to get the car through the next couple events then I will have a pretty good break through the summer. This will give me time to do the water pump done and open up the front of the car more to let more air in the front which I think is part of the problem. I also have a list of other things I want to get done on the car that have been bothering me for awhile. I have an event this weekend that I'm mainly using for testing the car and seat time. This should be a good event to sit back and analyze my driving and what the car is doing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #975 ·
I decided to get the car aligned at shop. There's a local shop that I had gone to when I first got my car and now starting to go back to JBA Racing. They are a full service shop and do really great work. Basically I'm having them do the things I just don't feel like doing in my garage like installing the new clutch and flywheel. I was wondering how accurate my home alignments were come to find out not very accurate. The car was way off and not completely sure how I messed it up so bad. The camber and the caster weren't off that bad but the toe was a problem. Now that I have an accurate alignment we will see how the car does at the event this weekend. It will also be help full to put my string alignment setup on the car and see what it looks like when the alignment is right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
946 Posts
After years of pulling engines apart to find the pitting and corrosion due to electrolysis from dissimilar metals and water/antifreeze mixture, I decided to put a stop to that with Evans waterless. I'm curious as to why you haven't done that as well?

I use the string method as well to set toe, I'm curious about those results as well.

Jay
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #977 ·
After years of pulling engines apart to find the pitting and corrosion due to electrolysis from dissimilar metals and water/antifreeze mixture, I decided to put a stop to that with Evans waterless. I'm curious as to why you haven't done that as well?

I use the string method as well to set toe, I'm curious about those results as well.

Jay
I honestly didn't put evans in the car when I first built it due to the fact this was the first engine i had ever really built myself and wasn't confident enough that I wasn't going to have problems with it leaking or worse. I went the distilled water when I first fired up the car because I figured if it leaks it will be easier to clean up. Now that I have some time on the engine and things are looking good I'm starting to look into the evans. I know its not really easy to switch over to since I've had water in the system and you really need to get it all out before you put the evans coolant in the system. I ran the distilled water and water wetter right now since I knew in it worked fine before so I wanted to see if it worked again or if I had a deeper problem with the cooling system. This weekend the factory temp gauge never got over half way the autometer gauge went only up to 205 the whole time I ran the car no matter how hard I pushed it. Before the factory temp gauge would be a notch below the red and around 230-240 on the autometer gauge and the same temp day. Also the car didn't push any fluid out and would cool down in the pits waiting for my next run. Now that I know the car can stay cool I'm going to put the electric pump on the car and during that process I'm going to see about switching to the evans. But that might have to wait until after the June event. I unfortunately have to figure out when the brake pedal goes to the floor and feels like a wet sponge without leaking any fluid. That will be in another post about this weekend later today.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
752 Posts
Discussion Starter · #978 ·
Had another good weekend of racing. The cooling issue seems to be put to rest for now or at least until after the June 19-20 event. I’m going to plan on replacing the water pump and figure out what I’m going to do for radiator fluid right now I’m looking to go with the Evans stuff. Here's a few of my runs from this weekend.

Saturday fastest run.


Sundays fastest warm up run.


Sunday shootout run


The car felt pretty good getting the alignment straightened out helped. I did make some shock adjustments to the car taking some clicks of rebound out and a couple clicks of compression. I also did allot of work on my driving some of the issues I think I’m having with the car are caused by me. When I raced the MOD car the gas was like an on off switch and it didn’t matter since the car didn’t make enough power to break the 13inch wide tires loose. That’s completely different with this car it doesn’t take much to break the tires loose on the car. I started to be lighter on the gas coming out of the corners and it helped settle the rear of the car down. I need to work on getting the car settled down as enter the corner and feed it gas as I drive it trough the corner. The MOD car you had to coast through a corner since the carbs would loose gas due to fuel slosh.

I have a few more things I want to try with my driving and car setup but I think I’m starting to get a feel for the car now I need to get faster in it. I was running the Yokohama’s all weekend and I can tell you they don’t feel as good as the Nankang CR-1. I might try and test a 295 Yoko on the car to see how the shorter side wall with no pinch works.

Now to the bad part of the weekend. Like I mentioned in my last post something happened with the brakes and right now I’m not sure what it is but it’s not good. The pedal started off normal but part way into the day the pedal started to get stiff then it would be light then stiffen up again. Each time i got to a corner I never knew what I was going to get. Then on my last shootout run before the finals the pedal went to the floor. It was like pushing on a sponge with my foot all most like I was bleeding the brakes. It wouldn’t happen all the time either. If I pumped the brakes I would get a firm pedal. Then it would go soft and I could push it to the floor. When it did this it was applying pressure to the brakes because the car would slow down but not very fast. Tonight when I get home I want to see if it does it without the car running or if its when the car is running this it’s an issue.

Not sure if this means the master cylinder is bad or something is going on with the ABS unit since I can tell it’s not functioning right. The fluid looks fine it’s really not that dark. I’m going to put the cooling system on the back burner for now since it seems to be working and focus on the brakes to figure out what is happening.
 

·
Registered
‘93 Mustang LX
Joined
·
5,080 Posts
Oooooooh ..... NICE!!
 
961 - 980 of 997 Posts
Top